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250P #0816 won both 1963 and 1964 Le Mans.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Sad that Pierre Bardinon himself, in the 42 years that he owned 0816 before he died, never got to know that his 1964 Le Mans winner was also the 1963 Le Mans winner and also the winner of the 12 Hours of Sebring in 1964.
     
  2. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    But always look on the brightside of life, for much of his life he owned the 1954 winning 375 Plus (#0384AM), 1958 winning 250 Testa Rossa (#0728TR), 1962 winning 330LM/TRi/whatever (#0808) and the 1964 winning 275P. So thats four of the eight/nine Le Mans winners and something noone else has or likely will ever achieve. The others are of course 166MM (#0008M), 250TR59 (#0772/0774), 250TR61 (#0794TR) and 250LM (#5893). Arguably he also had the most important, the 375 Plus that beat the might of Jaguar, the first and last Testa Rossa to win Le Mans and the last Ferrari works car to win Le Mans, in fact the only other important Le Mans winning Ferrari would be either the 166MM as the first Ferrari to do so or the 250LM as the last but hey, still the greatest Ferrari collection ever assembled.
     
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  3. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    I am a little worried as information is disappearing all the time and making progress is difficult as many existing sources are not available for research. I strongly agree with your ealier statement that "we are still in the infancy of the world of automotive historians.". It is a race against time. We are clearly heading towards times where stories and incorrect restorations are increasing again. Very difficult to fight against this without proper tools.

    I am a little surpriced over the "sensational" claim of two LM wins for 0816. I am not interested in sports prototypes, so I don't follow them but my old notes untouched for many many years already have this piece of information confirmed: 0816 clearly is the winner for both LM63 and LM64. So what's this fuzz about?
     
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  4. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #31 miurasv, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
    May I ask what was the source of the information of the LM '63 0816 win and its confirmation many many years ago as you state? As you say you are not interested in sports prototypes you couldn't have had the impetus to have sought out this info. Clearly this was not widely known as the Bardinons themselves did not know about it as this very significant info would have been published by Artcurial at the time they published details of their later withdrawn 2018 Retromobile auction. And, the longer this info was not known, or people knew like yourself and kept it to themselves, as has been in this case some 55 years, it is rather a sensation.

    Did you also know about the Sebring 12 Hours 1964 0816 win as well as the reason that was claimed to be 0812? No reason has been given for the change as they gave for the LM 1963 win. I have asked RM Sotheby's in the other thread but they have not (yet) replied.
     
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  6. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Must have looked through photos and identified the car. Sebring winner I have noted as 0812-unconfirmed, which means I don't have photos or cannot confirm the identity of the car appearing in them. I always double-check everything, so I also know how realiable my notes are. Gives me a huge edge when researching these cars and I have likely made a lot of discoveries all others are unaware of. I dare to say that Aardy beats me in recognizing race cars in old photos but I am unbeatable in GT- and road cars.
     
  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Thanks. Hard to identify these cars as different sources ID these cars differently in the races, they were run with open bodywork and bodywork changed 63 to 64.

    I presume 0816 should have Le Mans scrutineering stamps for 1963 and 1964 on the block and 0814 will have none?
     
  8. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
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    0816 no longer carries the same motor and gearbox it did as when it won 1964 Le Mans.
     
  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #35 miurasv, Aug 21, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
    Does not have the engine from its 1963 LM win either as that was a 3.0 litre 250 engine said to be tipo 128LM/63 whereas the one in the car is a tipo 210 which according to this information by RM/Classiche is a 3.3 litre 275 engine. Interesting that it's said to be numbers matching. Must have had at least 3 factory allocated engines. Though Ferrari could have bored the 3.0 tipo 128LM/63 engines out to 275 3.3 making them tipo 210.
     
  10. lucas leclerc

    lucas leclerc Rookie

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    Is it possible to trust RM ? they try to make money... Where are the proof ?
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #37 miurasv, Aug 21, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018

    Actually, RM Sotheby's state that after Le Mans 1964 0816 was returned to Maranello to be refurbished and it was noted that it was fitted with a Tipo 210 engine with internal no. 3 and a Tipo 564 gearbox with internal no. 1. They are what is in the car now.

    See snips of RM Sotheby's 0816 pictures of the engine and gearbox tipo and number stampings below.



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  12. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Anyone interested in a car at this level would be well worth retaining their own expert in the field but we can be sure RM and Ferrari Classiche would not be making claims they can't provide documentation to back up. Further, everything they have stated makes sense so its not like they are making an untenable claim.
     
  13. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    If you want to buy the car you must know more about it then any supporter, expert and - overall - the sales catalogue. Check with all available primary sources and don't forget that "we are still in the infancy of the world of automotive historians."
     
  14. lucas leclerc

    lucas leclerc Rookie

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    Ferrari Classiche is a commercial company. They want also make money... without any proof, i doubt...
     
  15. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Rookie
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  16. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Maybe you are right but still seems a touch harsh.....
     
  17. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    What time does the 250gto hit the block today?
     
  18. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    For what it's worth, Simon Kidston posted on instagram that the car is up for sale for US$ 40 Million. The white McLaren F1 they also have for sale is closer to half that, for reference.
     
  19. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Seems quite cheap that P car when a Mclaren F1, that has essentially done nothing, is for sale at $22m, and you can get a important 2x LeMans winner for $40m.

    Weird market.
     
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  20. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    True, but you could argue that the McLaren is a car that can be used quite frequently (as this particular example was, in fact) on the road, whereas 0816 is so important it's probably going to be seen mainly in static displays for the rest of its life. Different audiences for sure. I think the F1 is a bit overpriced, and the P car slightly underpriced (especially given the result of the GTO auction), but the approximate ratio of 2:1 in value makes general sense to me.
     
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  21. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    I totally agree. Even the most important Grand Prix cars are a 50 - 75% discount over 2 seaters. After all you can't take the wife for a ride when its only got 1 seat and while that may be a benefit for some, when added to the extra costs endemic in a unique race car, it becomes a huge matter.

    Its interesting that #0816 is one of perhaps 10 cars sold/offered for $20 million plus over the last year

    - Alfa Romeo 8C2300 (RM Private sales @ $25 mil.)
    - Aston DBR1 ($22 mil. at RM)
    - Aston DP215 ($21.45 mil. at RM)
    - Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa (at least two, one of which, #0736TR fetched $42 mil.)
    - Ferrari 250 GTO (three at $48 - 65 mil.)
    - Ferrari 275P (RM Private sales @ $40+ mil.)
    - McLaren F1 (#048 at $22 mil.)
     
  22. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
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    First I know little to nothing about the car in question, so this is NOT a comment on this specific car.

    That said; buyer beware. Always.
     
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  23. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    The car comes from Pierre Bardinon's collection. That is as immaculate as provenance gets in the Ferrari world.
     
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  24. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
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    I have nothing negative to say about the car at all. Not trying to indirectly imply about it either anything either.
     

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