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308 Brembo INSTALLED :)

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by enjoythemusic, Oct 17, 2004.

  1. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    First, many thanks to Verell with his infinite wisdom, guidance, and help. We installed the new Brembo calipers with slotted rotors plus changed the rear pads to better suit the fronts. Brake fluid is Motul 600. Also thanks to Eric Dahl (fchat member and original designer of the Brembo system) who gave me guidance and assistance to insure a good brake balance. Verell and Eric are GREAT guys who deserve a HUGE THANKS as after driving over an hour i can feel where my hard earned sheckles went to.

    Impressions: The pedal is a bit 'longer' before grip.

    When cold it is good and smooth. Once the pad temps warm up the grip gets more aggressive and i need to be careful not to use TOO much pressure too fast or the fronts can get near lockup/lockup. Tires are Mich Pilot Sport PS2 mounted on Kinesis K27 rims (17x8 front and 17x9 rear).

    After the usual brake cycling to bed in the pads as all four corners were new (60 to 5), went for a cooling off period then some 80 to 15 cycles.

    As for losing some unsprung weight up front, the jury is not out though it does feel more nimble. DID NOT do any spirited driving as wanted to bed in the brakes and be sure of things.

    The pics below show a few highlights. As for the digital readout, that is the G forces. The scale shows positive and negative G forces. Notice the braking G forces are around 1.15 and i was not doing any aggressive acceleration so it was around 0.5G.

    Enjoy the pics and MANY THANKS again to Verell and Eric!!!
     
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  3. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
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    Russ Turner
    Brilliant, just brilliant.
    Kudos to Verell and Eric, and to Steve for pushing through on this inspired project! Interesting if your brake balance is any different - too soon to tell.
    Looking forward to hearing progress!
    best
    rt
     
  4. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    rt,

    Hard to say about balance, but so far i THINK the front has become a bit too biased. But who knows as the system is far too new and need to give it all time to settle/wear in. Add to that i will soon use Eric's new lightweight aluminum centers/slotted rims for the rear (versus stock now). That is once Eric ships me a set (hint hint Eric) :)
     
  5. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    congrats Steve. Nice project. Are you going to add a proportioning valve for selectable front/rear brake bias? How about a few pics of the car with the wheels on it as it sits on the ground sporting those big brakes?
     
  6. The Mad Hatter

    The Mad Hatter Formula Junior

    Feb 27, 2004
    257
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    The Mad Hatter
    Steve,

    Having seen your new brakes, I can't wait for mine to show up...those look just awesome! Congrats man!

    Cheers,
    Travis
     
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  8. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
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    Steve
    Can you post the specs (wt, rotor diameter, piston sizes...)? Also, how much is front track changed?
     
  9. velocityengineer

    velocityengineer Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2003
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    Eric Dahl
    Hi Steven,
    I just got back in town, glad to see you have the system mounted up.

    Your pedal will for sure feel longer, the piston area increase over stock is 930 sq cm, which is about 20% more than stock.
    This will translate into about, but not exactly 20% more pedal travel.

    This is a feel issue only, as the brake system is about 30% more powerful in terms of brake torque. So you will have much better braking reserve and ability, albeit with a longer pedal.

    The Brembo set shifts the static brake balance to the front by 9%, (69.7%f, 30.3%r)over the stock balance split. This is not ideal, but it is not dangerous. If you put in a very high performance rear pad, (ferodo ds2500 or 3000, Pagid 4-2-1, SBS Pro Track, or similar) you can put the balance closer to a 5% front balance increase, which is far more acceptable.

    I see that you have done a runout check of the rotor on the car. This is a smart step to take in the system mounting. I am curious to know what amount of runout you found, and if you compared it to the OE rotor.

    Talk to ya soon, enjoy the system!

    Eric
     
  10. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
    16,375
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    I NEED A JOB
    Steven, GREAT MOD! WOW!! be nice to see how it improves as you tweak it and break the system in!
     
  11. velocityengineer

    velocityengineer Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2003
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    Eric Dahl
    Hi,

    I noticed you had a dial indicator on the rotor measuring for runout. Out of curiousity, what was the runout?

    Thanks
     
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  13. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
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    Verell Boaen
    We didn't think to measure the runout of the old rotors.

    Wish we had, as we'd have discovered early in the day that the RH front wheel bearing was shot. By the time we discovered it the local parts store had closed. So 1.5 hours taken up by a round trip to Nashua,NH where NAPA was out of sets 2 & 6! AutoZone a couple of miles up the road had them tho. Then another half-hour to press out the old bearings, clean the hub up, pack & install the new bearings, etc.

    Btw, Sure wasn't a 3-4 hour job.we started the project about 9:00 AM, broke about 35 or 40 min for lunch, skipped supper & Steven drove off about 10:30 or 11:00 PM. Even w/o the trip for the wheel bearings it would have been a long day. Still, the results were worth it! We had a lot of fun doing the project.

    Runout Bottom line:
    Runout on.LH wheel was ~0.0013" (spec is 0.003).
    Runout on RH wheel w/new bearings was ~0.0007".

    Alignment:
    BTW, for both rotors clearance between the outside ends of the pad slot and the rotor was a very consistent 0.052". By calibrated eyeball, the inside clearance was greater, but not by much, maybe ~0.007 or so..

    We did not need to shim the Brembo caliper mounts, as the difference between inner & outer pad slot clearances was noticably less than the thickness of the original caliper shim washers, and because the shims would have further increased the inner clearance.

    The machining & finish of the BREMBO calipers & rotors was absolutely beautiful! Only flaw was that the clearance holes machined into the rotor hub for installing the rotor retainong bolts with the wheel alignment assist pins was so small that you couldn't get a socket into it. We ended up using a pair of pliars to hand tighten the pins.

    (slightly off-topic)
    Maybe someday I'll be able to afford them for my car. Meanwhile, I'm thinking about a much lower cost front brake upgrade using mostly off-the shelf parts:

    I grabbed a spare 4-piston 2nd gen Rx7 caliper from my parts pile & tried it on the stock rotor. The rotor width was spot on as I knew it would be from the rotoor specs. Sure doesn't look like it'll take much to machine an adapter out of 1" AL stock. The Rx7 calipers are known for their stopping power. The SCCA racers don't bother upgrading the 2nd gen Rx7 brake system as they haven't found anything that works better!
    When I get a chance I'm going to take a look at the Rx7 rear calipers as they have significantly larger pad area than the stock rears.

    Oh, yes, by hand heft comparison, the Rx7 caliper weighs significantly less than the original caliper, & somewhat less than the Brembo caliper (probably because it's MUCH larger, therefore more Al.)
     
  14. Chiaro_Slag

    Chiaro_Slag F1 Veteran

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Jerry
    Steve - Congrats - The new brakes look awesome!

    Gotta love F-Chat - Friends like Verell is what makes ownership so fun!

    Mad Hatter - Can't wait to see yours on the TR - I'm jealous. :)
     
  15. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Hi Everyone,

    Sorry for the delay, was out driving and also at Linda's for the weekend.


    Brake bias, yes will probably install an adjuster to lower the fronts. They grip like mad and i have a feeling they can be cut back a touch for better balance for the rears. Pic below as for how it looks on the ground.

    As for specs, they are on the Brembo website and are 313 or so rotor and four piston. i went with slotted rotors.

    Eric is 100% right in that there is longer pedal movement until they take hold but it is STRONGER so more finesse is REQUIRED. Per Eric's suggestion Verell and i also installed Ferodo ds2500 for the rears. Still find the fronts lock up fast so may do a brake bias/balancer adjuster and cut down the front a bit.

    More driving impression.... The car STOPS on a quarter! i think the weak rears are keeping it from stopping faster. The PS2 really grab, but at some point they, too, lose grip as the brakes have more gripping than the Mich Pilot Sport PS2 do.

    In the end she DOES stop faster and have a longer pedal travel, yet the fronts can lock up with less movement once they begin to grab so, again, it is more about finesse than brute force driving. Hopefully biasing the fronts down a bit will make things less touchy. Of course i can always play around with various brake pads... but will leave that for the 2005 race season.
     
  16. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
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    Philip
    Seems I've read somewhere (Carroll Smith?) that these should not be used in the front lines. By the way, Smith hates them anyway (hysteresis).

    They do look good through the wheels.
    Philip
     
  17. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Philip,

    You are right (i read the same books :) ) and will wait for the system to settle in. Have a feeling playing around with pads is a more sane approach and it is not TOO bad right now. Just takes a bit of adjustment on MY part. Went for more drives today and am becoming more confident and comfortable with the system. The stock system needed more physical ooomph while the new system offers more FEEL and less physical input from me.

    FYI: The stock system employed EBC Green Stuff V4 all around. New system is Brembo front pads and the 2500 for rear per Eric Dahl's suggestion. Not sure what the stock brake fluid was, but the old system did have Goodridge braided lines on all corners already. Hope i did not confuse you on the two configurations my friend and ALL help is ALWAYS appreciated!!!
     
  18. ethans_dad

    ethans_dad Formula Junior

    Mar 24, 2002
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    Stephen R Chong
    Steve:
    The brakes look wonderful! Just a question about the slots in the last picture; it looks like the FR wheel has the rotor slotting opposite to wheel rotation. Is this typical? I usually see the rotors pinwheel in the same direction as wheel rotation.
    Look forward to hearing how they perform once you get some time to dial in the balance!
     
  19. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    You have a great eye for detail! They are positioned CORRECTLY and not for 'bling effect' as seen on other cars. Some rotor manufacturers do indeed place the slots differently, yet for proper EFFECTIVENESS they should be angled as they appear in my photos (and per Brembo's instructions). Alas, some folks like BLING and the same can be said for (nearly useless) drilled rotors. Solid or slotted, please.
     
  20. Godfather

    Godfather Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2002
    487
    Fiorano
    Great thread, I've always been interested in putting Brembo's on my 308 especially for the track days. I was always under the impression that installing a big brake kit like Brembo's only eliminated braking fade you can experience on the track but not actually improve stopping distance.

    Glad to hear its working great for you.
     
  21. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Can not TECHNICALLY comment about braking distances between stock and Brembo GT package as this would need to be a direct swap out, temp checks, etc etc under proper scientific standards. As for FEEL, it FEELS stronger and my Pioneer AVIC-1 measures about a .15G or so gain in stopping force. It is ME who needs to learn how the new system feels and what the braking limits are before front lock up. Another trick is 'human ABS' by fast foot blipping. Glad i am a drummer with well-trained feet for speed pedal bass and hi-hat techniques.

    Keep in mind we also changed ALL brake pads, so the difference COULD be due to different pads and their effectiveness on the rotors accordingly.

    As for brake fade, once the bed in was done i decided to let her rest last night. As for today, i felt NO fade. Got things up to temp and all was fine. Was really testing the bakes and learning the system and it never faded, but this is on street and with NO brake duct cooling and naturally track conditions will be different. Will have to wait until 2005 to REALLY know what i am dealing with here.
     
  22. Roryferrari

    Roryferrari Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Dave Bell
    It's been nearly 4 months waiting, but the first Brembo big break pkg may be ready next week for my 328. Brembo's R&D (Thanks to Chris) will be test fitting them this week in Costa Mesa. Will keep those interested as to any development. I'm tentatively promised they will ship next week provided no further changes need to happen. This should make those interested very happy!
     
  23. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    May 4, 2001
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    I put the complete Brembo kit on my 84 308 in the spring of 03. I have tracked it about 8 times since and I LOVE it! I use the Carbotech Panther XP pads and ATE Blue fluid. This is way more then enough brakes for a street car that runs a lot of track events. Everyone that drives my car at the events (yes, I let other people drive it) really are impressed. It was very expensive but worth it to me. Every penny.
     
  24. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    Aug 3, 2002
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    Mike Charness
    Yeah, I'm one of the guys that has driven Dr. Tommy's car and liked it so much, I ordered a Brembo front kit for mine! I'm waiting for arrival and installation...
     
  25. TURBOQV

    TURBOQV Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2003
    838
    NV and Socal

    i am next. Stock 308 brakes suck with applications over 400hp.


    Great post guys, thanks for the info.


    Paul
     
  26. Pole Position USA

    Oct 13, 2004
    24
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    Victor Barreira
    For your information,

    It is impossible to measure run out on a 2 piece floating disc assembly on the car, as the all assembly has 15/000 float.

    The Brembo rotor is mounted to the hub with special hardware to allow the disc to float...

    Victor Barreira
    www.polepositionusa.com
     
  27. TURBOQV

    TURBOQV Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2003
    838
    NV and Socal
    #25 TURBOQV, Mar 26, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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