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308 difficult to engage gears when sitting still but moving it shifts fine

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 308GTS, Mar 25, 2004.

  1. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    My 85' 308 QV when Hot and sitting still is reluctant to go into first or second or any other gears. When moving and warm it shifts perfectly smooth. Cold it shifts fine still and moving.
    Any ideas on what this could be. I replaced the fluid but that didn't seem to help and I redjusted the clutch different ways but that didn't help either.
    Could it be a throw out bearing going out? Thanks.
     
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  3. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
    Full Name:
    Hans E. Hansen
    This can be caused by the clutch hanging up slightly. Either not fully disengaging, or perhaps the disc isn't sliding on its splines enough to not 'lean' on the flywheel when the pressure plate is pulled back. I've seen that before on several other cars.
     
  4. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,163
    Depending upon what you mean:

    If you are stopped and are holding the clutch in and the gear lever is NOT in gear*, then the mainshaft and layshaft are both stopped. If the dog teeth do not line up, then you can't push the dog in to select the gear. Letting the clutch out into the friction zone, rotates the mainshaft and allow the dogs to engage to selct the gear.

    *This is the worst of both worlds, the throwout bearing is under stress, adn you are still not in a position to operate the geaarbox quickly. Do one of two things: A) (recommended) clutch out in neutral, B) (not recommended) clutch in gear in 1st.
     
  5. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    I am not sure what more I need to clarify but I will try to explain it again.

    Only when Warm this happens. Cold the car shifts fine sitting still and moving.

    Warm, come to a stop at a light, etc. Put in Neutral, Clutch out. Light Green push in clutch go to shift but it is reluctant to engage any gear. It will engage but it will require more force than normal. It is reluctant to engage a gear.

    Warm while moving, this can be from 2 mph up. Shifts fine, just like it should, smooth and easy.

    Hopefully this clarifies the sit. more.

    It sounds to me like a clutch almost gone or a pilot bearing issue. I just thought I would ask to see if anyone has had this problem.
    If it was clutch drag it would happen cold though. Plus, I have adjusted the clutch many different times. I do have some adjustment left.
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,472
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    And if you're "warm, stopped, in-a-gear, with the clutch in" can you select other gears more OK-ish if you operate the shift lever quickly (i.e., you don't give the intermediate stuff time to get rotating)?

    The better cold behavior could be related to the higher viscous drag of the lubricant at that temperature (i.e., "drag" at the disc or pilot bearing is less efficient at getting the intermediate stuff rotating).

    My TR actually had the problem that Hans described (clutch disc hub frozen to splined shaft), but almost regardless of the cause the fix is still bound to be a clutchectomy. Is your clutch area unserviced since birth?
     
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  8. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    I plan on changing the clutch, pp, tb, and pb. I was just wondering what the cause might be and it anyone has had this before. Just to be sure before I go ahead and take it apart. I have no record of a clutch change so it could be. By the adjustment I can tell it doesn't have too much life left but it should have at least 2K worth of clutch from what I can est. by the adjustment left. Thanks.

    It was still difficult when warm and stop in first to go to second or third. It would allow it if I did it right when I stopped or just before but if I sat for a while it was difficult to change regardless.
     
  9. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    You wrote "I have adjusted the clutch many different times" in your last post.
    This got me thinking...

    How often have you adjusted the clutch, why the adjustment, and what was your procedure? How old is the fluid?

    How old is the clutch? It's really not that difficult to pull the transfer gears, and bell housing to take a look. I've only done it once on my QV, but an inspection of the clutch components coulb be done in a few hours I would think. Once you are there, you might as well do the whole thing- of course.

    The reason I asked about your adjustment procedure is that if you altered the length of the cable by changing the cable in-line adjuster, it could take some time to get it back to factor specs.

    I'm certainly not a professional, but it seems solvable.
     
  10. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    Sorry- you and I just posted at the same time. You said you were going to replace the clutch components- I think thats a good idea.

    Yes, I have done it and it's really not that difficult. The hardest part was getting everything aligned when installing the bell housing. I used a plastic GM alignment tool and all was well.

    The procedure is posted in a few different places-check the archives both here and at the old F-chat site. Good luck, and pm me if you need any specific question answered.

    I would be glad to help- although my car is a Euro QV, but they should be the same.
     
  11. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Thanks. I am sure I will have some questions. I bought an input shaft off of a 308 a while back that should make the alignment easy. I will take some pics of it too.
    I redjusting it different times at the turn bunkle only as I thought I might have gone to far thinking I had clutch drag so I added more play into it and it didn't help. Thanks.
     
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  13. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
    Full Name:
    Hans E. Hansen
    308GTS: Clutch drag can be intermittent. It was for me. So it most definitely could show up warm and not cold. In my case, it seemed to get worse with city driving, but if I ran the piss out of it on back country roads, it would improve.
     
  14. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
    Full Name:
    Hans E. Hansen
    Actually, clutch drag is quite easy to diagnose. Next time your car is in a misbehaving mode, shift into 1st as you are slowing down. At a standstill on level ground, rev the engine with 1st gear engaged, clutch depressed. If the car creeps at all, you now know the source of the problem.
     
  15. Mark 328

    Mark 328 Formula Junior

    Nov 6, 2003
    510
    Orange, Ca
    Full Name:
    Mark Foley
    My thought would be that you have a slightly warped or damaged clutch disc. When the clutch heats-up the disc expands and the travel on the throw-out fork is not enough to completely disengage the pressure plate. Perhaps for the short term, you could try to adjust the clutch for less freeplay on the pedal. I don't know what the Ferrari figures are, but if it was a Chevy the requirement is for 1/2" of pedal free play, if you adjusted for a 1/4" you would disengage the clutch more by depressing the pedal.
    Mark
     
  16. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    Thanks for the ideas guys. It could be that. I will try to take some free play out of it and maybe that would help. It is worth a try.
    I will try that test 4re gt4. That is a great idea. I will give it a go tomorrow and keep you posted.
     
  17. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 3, 2012
    4,238
    Kahuku / Cottonwood
    Full Name:
    Will
    First, apologies for reviving this thread from the dead, but after a long "through Google FChat search", this was the closest one to what I'm experiencing.

    Problem:

    Engine and gearbox cold, the car shifts into all gears, including second, smoothly and without issues. Once warm, can't shift into first. All other gears fine when warm. Clutch does not feel like it's worn and no uncommanded shifts out of gears either warm or cold.

    Thoughts? (Or links, if I missed the answer someplace)

    Ciao!

    Hannibal
     
  18. ragtop1

    ragtop1 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 11, 2006
    2,352
    Ontario, Canada
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    Larry Warren
    thanks for reviving this.
    My '79 GTS just starting doing the same. Trouble going into 1st gear when hot at a stand still. The clutch has been replaced with less than 10,000 miles travelled.
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,472
    Texas
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    Steve Magnusson
    Since you both seem to have carbed 308 -- are you both saying that (you have the original external lever/spring actuation mechanism and) the adjustment is correct, but you still have trouble?

    Also, if you select 3rd gear initially when the coachwork is stationary at warm idle with the clutch pedal depressed -- can you then quickly select 1st gear successfully (moving from 3rd to 1st keeping the clutch pedal depressed)?
     
  20. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Rookie
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    Jan 3, 2012
    4,238
    Kahuku / Cottonwood
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    Will
    Steve:

    Thank you for responding.

    Yes, Euro carb GTB.

    I believe it's original actuator, but have not checked it or it's adjustment yet. If that's a possibility, I will check it. That's why I was asking the question...to help me figure out where to start chasing this.

    I have not tried the 3rd to 1st maneuver...but I will next time I drive and report back.

    Thank you again for the ideas of how to proceed with this.
     
  21. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    5,889
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    This can be a pressure plate issue, once warmed up it no longer fully releases the clutch. I had this happen on an older trans am that turned out to be a cracked diaphragm on the PP.
     
  22. ragtop1

    ragtop1 Formula 3
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    Nov 11, 2006
    2,352
    Ontario, Canada
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    Larry Warren
    1st gear will engage easier from 3rd to 1st at a complete stop with clutch in. What's happening Steve ? You obviously have some insight here.
     
  23. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,472
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    It's just more confirmation that the clutch is not disengaging completely -- so the rotating assembly between the (rotating) flywheel and the (stationary) gears connected to the differential is being slightly "driven" (when "cold", the higher viscosity of the gear oil adds extra drag so it helps stop the intermediate stuff from rotating -- which is why "warm" can be worse than "cold"). Many possible causes: bad pilot bearing in the crankshaft end, clutch disc female splined hub rusted to the male splined shaft (that it's supposed to slide on to move away from the flywheel a little when the pressure plate opens), something wacky/broken in the pressure plate as Pete suggested, etc.. If the external cable/lever adjustment is OK (and you should check that first per the 308GT4 WSM instructions), not much you can do other than a clutch-ectomy.

    Another test (although you need to be careful doing this) is to put the car on a level surface, with engine off, into 1st gear with the clutch pedal down, emergency brake off and foot brake off, and then try starting the engine -- if the coachwork lurches forward a little when the starter motor engages = also confirms the clutch is not disengaging well.
     
  24. ragtop1

    ragtop1 Formula 3
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    Nov 11, 2006
    2,352
    Ontario, Canada
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    Larry Warren
    Thank you for the quick response Steve. I will try that test tomorrow as well as the cable/lever adjustment tactic.
     

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