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308 Engines Injected vs Carbed

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 308tr6, Mar 23, 2004.

  1. 308tr6

    308tr6 Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
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    Rico
    I am curious if the 2v injected (1982 to be specfic) can be set up as a carbed engine? For example can the intake structure for a 79 308 be bolted on the later engines? Any other differences one would have to be concerned with? Also are the transmissions interchangeable for all the 308's regardless of carbed, injected, 4v, etc. Thanks
     
  2. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    The basic engines are the same so yes you can bolt all the carb hardware onto it. The QV is different though. You can bolt a 328 engine onto a 308 bearbox other than crank sensors at the flywheel end. So many different ratios and updates inside the gearboxes make them different from market to market with ratios and oil pumps in the newer ones. Physically they will bolt up.
     
  3. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Mostly, yes. The fuel pump, gas tank evap system, linkage, vacuum lines, etc, and other details need to be looked at.
    The FI harness and wiring require some care to remove.
    I've converted a 3.2 to carbs, and it's my impression the 2v would be easy.
    good luck
     
  4. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    I think you could change just about any car to run carbs,
    but I would have to ask what your intentions, and or goals are by doing so,
    as well as budget restraints you might have.
    Sure you could slap a set of carbs on a 82 308, but without spending a good chunk of change for the other things you will need to pull it off,
    like the right cams, you would just be farting in the wind.
    If you enjoy old carbed 308s, then I would trade for a carb 308.
     
  5. seschroeder

    seschroeder Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2002
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    I believe I agree with Dave. I was under the impression that the cams are different between a 2v injected and a 2v carb engine.
     
  6. fedev

    fedev Rookie

    Nov 10, 2003
    23
    FI has shorter duration cams on the intake (244, the same as exhaust). Carb should be 260. Different phasing as well (much less overlap).
     
  7. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Just want to be clear that a 2v converted to carbs will run fine on the FI cams, and pick up about 15 hp from removing the Kjet alone. Add the Euro intake cams with 260 duration (stock FI exhausts are ok) and probably plan to pick up another 15 hp - total adding to about 230 which is about what the carb cars ran. Your total investment could be about $3-4K.
    More radical cams can be applied, and you can start pushing 260 - 280 at the flywheel. Would defer to several folks here (pma1010) who are running comp cams.
     
  8. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
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    So hypothetically:
    - a set of early carb cams or re-profiling the existing ones, $2000
    - intake manifolds (need to swap?) - say you can mod your existing for $300 (pure guess)
    - a set of DCNF carbs. $1000
    - plus you'll want to rebuild them (needles, seats, diaphragms etc), say $200
    - Assume all the emissions related stuff comes off and doesn't need to be replaced
    - throttle linkage ? [probably need to fabricate] $200?
    - gaskets and spacers, $200 (IIRC)
    - Replacement belts etc ?

    Labor to install/degree/re-shim ?
    Labor to sync carbs

    Seems like parts will be $4000 or so less what you could realise for the bits you sold. If you have a shop do it, my guess is you'll spend the same amount on labor. So, $4000 - 8000 and you've still got to deal with the gear ratios being off. The economics would suggest you are better off selling and re-buying, but these things are never (really) about economics...
    HTH
    Philip
     
  9. 308tr6

    308tr6 Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
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    Rico
    First of all thanks to all this is very helpful. Here is my situation. I have a 79 308 with about 90,000 miles on it and it actually runs fairly well, but is getting tired. I bought an engine out of an 83 GTSi that I want to rebuild while I continue driving the car. I want to keep the engine the carbed version to stay generally consistent with the 79 series engine, but I will also want to consider several modifications to the stock 308 to get a nice street performer, but not a race engine. I have some experience in engine rebuilds and know the importance of matching carbs, cams, etc., the whole air flow, combustion stream as a continuum. However not having ever done a Ferrari before, I am looking for advice as the right setup here. I would like to try to get close to 300 hp. Budget...well, it is a Ferrari, and I am a wizard at creating logic to justify all of this madness. So any suggestions..where do I start??? Thanks again.
     
  10. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
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    Sell the carb'd engine and the 2V FI to Ted in exchange for a half way decent 4V motor. Mod the intakes. Run carbs (like Russ).
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    The usual perf stuff applies to the 308 engine like any other car. Custom 10.5:1 pistons, stainless steel valves, porting, regrind cams, half decent exhaust and away you go. Your 79 cams suck even if retimed compared to early US or Euro cams but regrind to street high perf specs from someone like WEB in LA rather than buying used ones. That will get you heading towards the 300HP mark but only the dyno will tell.
     
  12. 1975gt4don

    1975gt4don Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
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    I'm with pma1010, took the words outta my mouth. Sell your sensors, fuel distr, airbox junk, CPU junk and whatever else is with an FI system, on EBAY. Might get some big bucks for it to help offset your other costs.

     
  13. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    The '76 and '77 cars have different cams than the 78 & 79 cars, so not all carb. cars are equal.
     
  14. 308tr6

    308tr6 Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
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    I see somewhere here, about putting a 328 crank in a 308. Anyone know the details here? Is that the essential difference between the 308 to 328 - higher crank stroke with same bore to get more displacement. Is it a worthwhile mod to a standard 308, more torque? Since I am on the subject - anybody know about the 4 liter system advertised on one of the sponsor's site's? (Nick) Thanks again.
     
  15. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    I've heard that 'urban legend' of the 328 crank trick as well. Would give James Patterson at Norwood (www.norwoodperformance.com) a call - if anyone would know it would be him. Don't think the 4 liter conversion has been finished yet.

    Many folks have changed the induction on 3.0 and 3.2 cars to carbs, EFI and forced induction variants - some even with NOS. While a brilliant piece of engineering, the K-jet is more an emissions control device than a performance induction system. Think about why you're doing it, and look at all the options.
     
  16. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I wouldnt bother with the 328 crank, you are only getting half the equasion anyway because you dont get the larger bore along with it. The cost for the small gain would not be worth it. I would like to see someone make a long runner intake for an injected 308 application. Scrapping the stock fi is a given and I think big torque gains can be had with, say a 12 inch runner so you dont kill high rpm power.
     
  17. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    I'd agree.
    Modena Engineering in Austrailia actually used to make a beautiful cast cross ram manifold for the Ferrari V-8 some years ago. Don't know if Frank still has any around since he changed focus...
     
  18. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Im going to try looking it up. Interested in this manifold. Off topic a bit, there is a company called BXR manifolds that caters to 5.0 mustangs and they produce a crossram maniflod as well. Huge gains right across the board on a stock application. I like webers but electronic FI with the right manifold would be great.
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Aren't all the '83s engines QV or have I been smoking crank again??? So that makes the question are we talking about a 2V or 4v engine??
     
  20. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    He bought an 82 not an 83 and yes you are correct 83 is QV.
     
  21. Husker

    Husker F1 Veteran
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    #21 Husker, Mar 23, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    I might add that a good fart in the wind is way underestimated too.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    As an example, here is a carb'd 3.2 qv converted to carbs with stock FI cams and timing which dyno'd 236 SAE rear wheel hp (about 288 crank):
     
  23. 1975gt4don

    1975gt4don Formula Junior

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    That pretty much sticks a knife into the FI vs weber debate now doesn't it? A slam dunk.

    Weber---accept no substitutes

     
  24. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Carbs are nice but I think electronic injection with a tuned long runner manifold would out-perform it.
     
  25. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Webers will out perform a single throttle body K-jet easily.
    Performance against EFI is flow dependant, based on runner diameter, length and flow characteristics with the cam. While the Webers may match EFI for absolute hp for similar intakes, they will never be as precise under different conditions. While many may disagree, I do believe Webers are easier to maintain and are a bit more reliable (but certainly less emissions friendly).

    best to all
    rt
     

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