I see some talk of switching to Red Line gear oil for the trans. Question; Which grade would be best for my 79 308 GTS? 75-90 or 75-90 NS ??? Sounds like most of you like it and I would like to try it. Thanks, Mike
here are some threads. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124644 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124644 also do a search (top left) under redline gear oil, 75-90, etc. I personally use 70-90 NS
Red Line 75W90 is a hypoid modified gear oil intended for limited slip differentials. It contains special modifiers to eliminate "chatter" in limited slip diffs during cornering. Red Line 75W90NS does not have the limited slip modifiers. It is the best stuff IMHO for synchromesh transmissions. Generally speaking, you do not want limited slip modifiers in a synchromesh transmission. They will interfere with the sychros engaging. Because the Ferrari "trans-axle" boxes contain both a sychro transmission and a limited slip differential, a compromise must be reached. These tranmissions seem to work well on 75W90NS, and do not display problems with the differentials. Several people say that they run one quart of 75W90 and the rest 75W90NS as a compromise, and find both the shifting of the transmission and limited slip in the differential to work well. IMHO, stick with straight 75W90NS. If, after running the NS you find that the differential is chattering or groaning a bit, add a quart of 75W90 (obviously, drain off some of the NS, don't over-fill the tranny unit). Hope that helps, Steve
for my few cents worth: I spoke with Red Line a few days ago about Trans oil for my '84 Boxer: His suggestion was 75W90NS. He commented that there might be a littrle 'chatter' from the diff, which is in no way damaging, and can be sorted by the addition of a small amount of friction modifier, which is also sold by Red Line in 4 oz bottles. He sugested adding about 1% at a time untill the chatter was removed. Apparantly Red Line 75W90 is 75W90NS with about 8% friction modifier added, so if you add 8% FM to 75W90NS you end up with plain old 75W90. Pretty cool eh? So I have ordered a case of 12 litre bottles of 75W90NS plus a 4 oz bottle of Friction modifier from Dessert Rat in Arrizona fo $89.99 plus $4.95, shipping to Oklahoma was $20. Note; Ferrai quotes Imperial sizes, not US. 1 litre is 0.264 US gallon. Robert
for my few cents worth: I spoke with Red Line a few days ago about Trans oil for my '84 Boxer: His suggestion was 75W90NS. He commented that there might be a littrle 'chatter' from the diff, which is in no way damaging, and can be sorted by the addition of a small amount of friction modifier, which is also sold by Red Line in 4 oz bottles. He sugested adding about 1% at a time untill the chatter was removed. Apparantly Red Line 75W90 is 75W90NS with about 8% friction modifier added, so if you add 8% FM to 75W90NS you end up with plain old 75W90. Pretty cool eh? So I have ordered a case of 12 litre bottles of 75W90NS plus a 4 oz bottle of Friction modifier from Dessert Rat in Arrizona fo $89.99 plus $4.95, shipping to Oklahoma was $20. Note; Ferrai quotes Imperial sizes, not US. 1 litre is 0.264 US gallon. Robert
i use Amsoil 70-90 SVG and she works great on the track and street. Color me in the minority. Usual disclaimer: am not an Amsoil head, i love Mobil 1 0W-40 in the engine. The Amsoil stuff really works great, but guess will stop posting that as no one seems to try it/believe me and i am probably one of the harshest guy on my tranny here at Fchat due to tracking 25+ times a year.
Steve, Nothing wrong with Amsoil. Most of the synthetic gear oils -- Red Line, Amsoil, Royal Purple, etc. -- are all essentially similar. I have happened to have had good luck with the Red Line products in many different cars from old Jaguar XKEs to my Corvette Z06, so I used it in the Mondial and it will be going into the 308 over the winter. If you are happy with what you are using, stick with it. The one thing I'd question is the 0W-40 Mobil 1 in the crankcase. I guess you've been using it for a while and haven't had problems, but in my experience, old engines don't really like sythetic oil. The stuff tends to find every little possible place to leak, especially old seals. I used Catrol GTX 20W-50 in the Mondial, and the engine ran perfectly, even under track conditions, with no leaks whatsoever. I changed the oil in that car frequently, as I do any car that I put on the track, so service length was not an issue. The only car I run Mobil 1 in is the Corvette, but that is the factory spec. fluid.
Have a used oil analysis (UOA) at the bottom of this posting. Agreed if the seals are really old. Had many changed two years ago, but the main one deep between bits in the engine are ??? old. Have had pretty much zero recording of coolant in the oil per UOA. Tried Amsoil 20W-50 years ago and she seemed really sluggish with it UNLESS the engine was really hot (125C+ oil temps). Agree old engines might not like 'thin' oils at very high temps due to viscosity problems. Last year attached the cooling problem and now even on hot track days (90F or so) the oil rests around 100C. Last week i ran the car for about 4 hours on the track in a 7 hour period in 70F temps and the oil did achieve 105C (usual heat soak from long/hard running time). NHIS is a brutal track due to low average mph/etc whereas LRP is pretty easy and WGI there is plenty of high-speed air to cool things off. Oil PRESSURE is what i look out for provided temps are fine and do not want low pressure. AEHASS has some excellent writings on BITOG and also here on Fchat. What oil temps and pressures are you reading when hot on track? Do you have data logging capability and monitor/record pressure versus temp versus g-forces? NOTE: the FIRST UOA taken in May 2006 is from a really retentive analysis company called Spectrum Labs and it showed me there was an air filtration problem which i did find and solve. The SECOND one is from July 2006 using the usual BITOG approved Blackstone Labs. The reason i like Mobil 1 0W-40 is it has high Moly as compared to their 5W-40. Mobil 1 DOES thin out so it gets changed after 3 track days (4 or so actual hours of track time). In the future think i'll stick with Spectrum Labs, their reports cost a bit more but seem to be more scrutinizing. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I've used synthetics in my previously owned 78 308GTS and 87 328GTS with no new leaks...and synthetics seem to have so many benefits over dino oil...
Just some comments guys from past experiances which doesn't mean a lot but thought you might interested. I have used nothing but synthetics for at least 30 years now started with Mobil products in corvettes in the 70s. I was amazed at how noticablely smooth the engine ran and how clean the inside of the valve covers would stay. Back then the seal technology wasn't as compatible as it is now so I did experiance seeping but nothing more than a typical small block chevy would get over time. Changed over to syn. in my 308 after a couple of changes of dino oil(1st time I used dino stuff in a long time this was back in 1987) and again noticed a difference in the smoothness of how the engine ran. When I bought my 355 I was using mobil 5-40w in it because I had several cases that I bought but, after it was gone I went back to Redline(what I have used in past fcars)what I noticed was that the slight rear main seal leak that I had went away.. go figure. My point is if you are having oil consumption or leak problems maybe change brand of oil, not type dino vs. syn but brands. In doing research over the years on oils it seems the molecular structure of true synthetics is far superior, in many ways, to conventional oil, not always sure that normal engines would benefit from the stuff but, with Ferrari engines and gearboxes being expensive to rebuild it seems to be cheap insurance. One other point if you are an oil nut (I say that with respect) then you need to go the site mentioned above ie; Bobistheoilguy.com more info than you will ever need. Anyway just thoughts, Regards, Vern
FYI, Just went to straight Redline75w90 (not ns) shifts like a dream (second gear up or down, like glass), no new noises. Previous fluid was 90w w/ GM limited slip diff additive. my .02 -L
Should work fine, but if you start to get some "crunching" during fast shifts, the solution is to go to the "NS" version...until then, you are fine to stick with what you have.
I was all ready to change the gear oil in my 308 as mentioned above. I read my Owner's Manual and it says to drain the oil from the clutch housing and then to fill it at the filler plug on the clutch housing cap. It doesn't show any pictures of the transfer case. Thought you drained the oil out of the transfer case and gear box. There was no mention of the clutch housing. What's all this about??
That's a bit of a mangled/mixed translation -- when they say "clutch housing", it also means the "transfer gear housing" (i.e, the transfer gear housing is sort of physically part of the clutch housing, but it is a completely separate chamber). Fig 77, page 90 in the 150/78 OM -- plug C is the transfer gear housing drain plug Fig 78, page 90 in the 150/78 OM -- Plug D is the transfer gear housing fill plug
Steve Thanks for your reply. Actually I thought that was what the manual meant but I wanted it confirmed by someone much wiser than I. You are a great consiliare. The pictures in the manual don't look at all like the pictures of the transfer case in this thread (at least to me). Could you please confirm a few things for me. I assume: 1. That differential = Transfer case. 2. There is no fluid associated with the clutch on a 308/328. 3. When the gear oil is add to the top of the transfer case and comes out the oil level plug then the 0.17 pints mentioned at the bottom of page 89 in the OM will automatically be filled correctly. Thanks for your help.
1. No, the differential is inside the gearbox housing 2. Yes -- no fluid 3. Yes -- see jpeg: Image Unavailable, Please Login
According to your diagram filling the Transmission will not put fluid in the Gear Box or Transfer Case. I believe this is not correct. The owners manual instructs you to fill the Gear Box with about 1/3 of a cup and the rest goes into the Transmission. According to this diagram, how in the hell does more than a cup finally find it's way into the transfer case?
For what it is worth, I've tried all the Red Line Oil gear box fluids (provided to me free for testing) and various Ferraris from 4cams through Daytonas to the 288 GTO, including 308s (I owned three carb cars). Before I forget, Robert has it right, you only add the fricition modifier in 1 ounce increments. If you add too much, you'll defeat the limited slip. A common problem with Daytonas. On the 308, 75 - 90NS and 75-90 worked fine. On the 4cam and Daytona, the 75-90 (limited slip additives) worked best. Although, the 75-90 with a dash of the 140 (Red Line's recommendation to try) worked well too. Shockproof worked best on the 250s. Probably because the boxes weren't as good as the later cars. Red Line thought the Shockproof may be needed in the 4cam and Daytona, but it wasn't necessary. None of the cars required additional friction modifiers. My favorite gear oil for the pre-95 Ferraris, though, is SWEPCO. And, unlike Red Line, I have to pay for it. On my three 308s, two had over 120K miles on them when I finally sold them. Not once was there a gearbox problem. The SWEPCO I use has a limited slip additive. It never caused a problem with the synchros in any of my cars, from 250s through the 512TR (newest car I've owned). Steve
I'm sorry, but I don't quite know how to respond to your post (the diagram shows introducing the gear oil into the transfer gear case -- not the "transmission"). It is perfectly acceptable to put the small amount of oil into the transfer gear case reservoir and then the bulk of the oil directly into the gearbox reservoir. The transfer gear case reservoir and the gearbox (transmission) reservoir are interconnected so the overflow from the transfer gear case runs into the main gearbox reservoir.
Sorry, some confusing verbage there. The diagram posted shows the oil level lower in the gear box than it is in the transfer case. If you fill from the top plug in the gear box, how does any oil get into the transfer case other than the .17 liter indicated in the manual to be filled from the top plug of the transfer case? When the transfer case is drained there is more than a cup in there.
Maybe i can help? There are three plugs. The bottom plug for draining, the top-facing plug, and the rearward-facing side plug for filling/checking level. With car warm and happy, make sure you can loosen the side and top plugs off first. THEN drain by removing the bottom plug and reinstall bottom plug when drained. Remove rearward-facing side plug and fill with Amsoil 70-90 SVG (or Red Line) until it begins to dribble out from the side plug opening. Reinstall rearward-facing side plug. Lastly, completely remove top-facing plug and add the small amount. Reinstall top plug. Done.
The .17 liters desribed is for an empty transaxle/transfer case. While driving, the gear oil constantly circulates throughout the transaxle. So, after driving, there will be more than .17 in the transfer case, but less in the gear box. Filling from the transfer case fill-hole until oil comes out of the gear box fill hole gives the desired amount of gear oil. The car must be level during this.
