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308 rebuild costs

Discussion in 'Australia' started by maurice70, Nov 8, 2004.

  1. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    3,987
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    maurice T
    What sort of prices are expected in rebuilding a 308 engine?What would be the parts cost and what would be the labour costs?Phil(Ferrarifixer) since your the only Fmech on this board your imput would be much appreciated.Thanks in advance
     
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  3. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    Phil Hughes
    Depends on too many variables to list without inspection.

    Minimum parts spend AU$3000, usual ~$10,000 Max $50,000+!
    Minimum labour ~80 hrs inc remove and refit. Max ~ Infinity!
     
  4. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    maurice T
    Thanks Phil.I know that the question is a bit like "how long is a piece of string"Iwas ust wondering what an average rebuild cost would be.Im told around$12-15k mark.Would you more or less agree with this?Would this include pistons,liners,rings,valves?Thanks for your reply
     
  5. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    The most cost effective way to rebuild a 308 is to re-bore the std liners to 82 mm and fit your choice of piston. This way you do not need to remove or replace the liners. Ferrari do not sell oversize pistons anyway so any liner wear need to be bored out or replaced.

    I'd say average parts/machining spend is ~10k and 80 hrs at eg $80/hr is 6,400. But if you can get your labour rate down somwehere, or do it yourself you'll come in under 15k if all is otherwise well.

    What is reason for rebuild.......if any damage then costs escalate.
     
  6. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    maurice T
    Once again thanks Phil for your imput.The car still goes hard but is smokey.It is also chewing oil.The funny thing is it doesn't always blow smoke.Mainly only when I stretch 1st and 2nd gears.Then usually by third gear the smoke is minimal.Engine has done 102,000kms.Do you think pistons&rings or valve guides?I know its hard to answer without seeing the car or doing a compression test or leak down,but with that sort of kms and other info what would be your guess?You stated that I could rebore to 82mm and fit pistons of my choice.Would I be able to use higher compression pistons?In doing so would I get much H/P gain?Could I just do that or does this mod go hand in hand with other mods to get full potential out of the engine.Questions,Questions,Questions I know I have plenty but the beauty of this forum is the many different insights and opinions.Again thanks Phil. PS:Im an air conditioning mechanic and I always get plenty of questions regarding A/C so if you have any feel free to ask!
     
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  8. ashsimmonds

    ashsimmonds F1 World Champ

    Feb 14, 2004
    14,185
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    Humble Narrator
    perhaps Peter Pless can help out... :D
     
  9. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2003
    4,125
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    Martin N.
    how much oil ? I would not go for an engine rebuild only because of oil consumption if the engine runs otherwise strong.

    Blue smoke under exclusively certain conditions like you describe ( 1st, 2nd gear ) can also be caused by fuel emulsion effects. I have discussed this emulsion issue a whole night long with a former fellow student - better said, he needed so long to explain it to me :) , who now works at Porsche in Zuffenhausen since 10 years, developing new engines. Have seen this on other recently rebuilt engines. It was very frustrating for the owners to see their engine consuming 1/4 ltr. / 1000 kms less than before the $$$$$$$$$ - overhaul.
    My carbed 308 GTB has now 105.000 kms, needs around 1,5 - 2 ltr. / 1000 kms, sounds healthy and runs strong. So why bother ?

    Best Regards from Germany

    Martin
     
  10. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Thanks martin my next question is what is fuel emulsion?
     
  11. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2003
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    Hi Maurice,

    an emulsion effect occurs, when one fluid mixes with another one. In this case oil and fuel. This can be caused by overrich fuel mixture under certain conditions, for instance and possibly in your case, high revs when the main carburettor circuit delivers more fuel than actually needed.
    The 40 DCNFs on our cars are well known for an overrich mixture supply, which can cause some oil washing off of the cylinder walls.
    This oil / fuel mixture created by this effects will now combust creating blue smoke.
    O.k., this is not the only possible reason for increased oil consumption, but one of many for blue smoke and NOT solvable by means of an engine rebuild.


    Best Regards

    Martin
     
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  13. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    maurice T
    Again thanks martin for your answer.It is beginning to make sense.I bought the car about 2 years ago.When I first got it it ran rough.It backfired alot,had a flat spot at 2800RPM and would not rev past 6500RPM.I took it in for a service which included Belts,all fluids,filters,Carbys rebuilt,distributors rebuilt and regraphed,all leads,extenders and plugs replaced,Valve clearances checked and adjusted,the front header was corroded and was replaced.When I got it back it ran like a rocket.The acceleration was so responsive.The only problem was I noticed that it was smokey.It wasn't as smokey before the service.Now the engine still runs hard and the only problems I've had is plug fouling.I tried NGKBP7ES,6ES and even 5ES.I finally found that the BP5EY have been alright.Now am I running too rich as a result of the carby rebuild?What else should I look at in order to reduce the smoke problem?Thanks for your imput.
     
  14. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    Take the lid off the air box and have a look to see how oily it is there. It's normal to have an oily film that comes through the breather, but maybe yours is breathing too heavily.

    If it's really oily inside the airbox, it could be just due to being over full of oil, but more likely you have a sticky broken piston ring.

    A broken or sticky ring requires rebuild I'm afraid, but there are more tests you can do to narrow it down a bit.

    Cylinder leakage reveals the most, combined with spark plug inspection, Compression test may help, but not to be relied upon.
     
  15. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie

    Jan 22, 2003
    4,125
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    Martin N.
    Hi Maurice,

    it would be interesting to know how rich the idle mixture is. You mention that the car had a flat spot prior to your big service and now has great throttle response.
    This causes me to suspect a very rich idle mixture, followed by fuel accumulating and combusting at higher revs. Maybe caused by adjustment, or is it possible, that the mechanic, who did the service, did something with the idle jets ?
    Many cars have the flat spot around 2500 1/min, especially when you were cruising a while with constant speed at these revs and then want to accelerate. Then you notice some stumbling.
    Resolving this problem is sometimes fiddling with the idle jet to alter the progression circuit to give the engine some richer mixture at the relevant revs. But one can also do TOO MUCH.

    Do the tests Phil suggest, but don't panic. Such mechanic problems on that engine are fairly rare.
    Talk with the mechanic who did the carbs and ask him, what he actually performed. Let him also measure the idle mixture; a quick and dirty test on the tail pipes is enough to evaluate if there's something too rich regarding the idle circuit. Anything above 5% CO can cause smoke. Anything below can cause bad thottle response, especially around the revs you mention ( 2800 1/min) or stuttering / hesitation.

    And one question; how much oil does your engine actually consume ?

    Best Regards from Germany

    Martin
    308 GTB #34379
     
  16. kerrari

    kerrari F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    Karen H.
    Maurice,
    Are you using Shell Optimax fuel? I discovered (courtesy of Canberra Alfa mechanic on the eve of Autoitalia this year) that NGK plugs have a compatability problem with this fuel which causes the ceramic to break down and hence not clean running. Replaced plugs and now run BP Ultimate exclusively and car seems happier. Also a minor bonus in that the Ultimate doesn't have that horrible stink of the Optimax. Cheers, K
     
  17. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    maurice T
    Yes I was using optimax for a while but am now almost strictly using Mobil premium.You might just be right with your diagnosis!Were you at Autoitalia this year?Which car did you show?I was there with the Gt4.
     
  18. kerrari

    kerrari F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    Turned up in my 308GTS (Qld plates) - grubby (pretty much as usual!) as I'd come from Melb via the Alpine Way both Vic and NSW sides. Fabulous drives on an autumn weekday! I was parked beside Trevor M's Dino but with so much to look at spent most of the day wandering around rather than standing chatting around the F cars.
     
  19. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    With all the dust I think all the cars were a little grubby!
     
  20. gva

    gva Rookie

    Jul 16, 2004
    37
    Melbourne Australia
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    Graeme Vincent
    Maurice, I have a lot of dyno experance with Ferrari carburettors. A lot are overfueled, which may be your problem, I suggest checking fuel mixtures. Adjustments made may solve your problems. The back of your car will be an indication.
    At 100K the damage may have been done, a few simple checks by someone that knows what he is doing can determine state of engine, I would suggest replacing ignition system. This will mask a lot of possible fuel problems, improve starting/tuning, burn unwanted fuel possibly doing harm to you engine. There are a opctions with ign systems. Perhaps I could be of some help.
    Engine rebuild on these engine's is now approx $15K, due to the availability of quality of after market gaskets, pistons, valves and guides. Boring liners to 82mm is the cheapest opction with 10:1 pistons. My dyno tests show advantages with 10:1 pistons. Coating can be applied to liners to increase life.
    I disagree with ferraifixer that liners do not have to be removed. crankshaft/camshafts are usually ok. Shell fuel has caused tuning problems within my workshop.
    Graeme
     
  21. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Thanks graeme.Could you please fill out your profile or tell me where in the world you are located.Australia?thanks again.
     
  22. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    He's in sunny Melbourne. But yeah Graeme...fill in your profile!
     
  23. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Veteran
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    Mar 20, 2004
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    GV
    Can you elaborate on the tuning problems with Shell fuels ?
    Are you referring to Optimax ?
    Cheers
    Michael
     
  24. SCOPE

    SCOPE Karting

    Sep 27, 2004
    120
    melbourne australia
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    tony
    yes i would like to hear the answer to that as i use optimax in my 328 gts.

    no problems yet but ?

    all the best tony
     
  25. gva

    gva Rookie

    Jul 16, 2004
    37
    Melbourne Australia
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    Graeme Vincent
    Michael, Optimax has been a problem with tuning and carbon deposits. gv
     

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