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308 Tec3 install

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by samtheclip, Jun 15, 2004.

  1. samtheclip

    samtheclip Karting

    May 30, 2004
    176
    Buffalo, NY
    Full Name:
    Sam Pasceri
    I see Nick's Forza and others sell the Tec3. Has anyone installed one of these or paid to have it done. What did you pay for install and unit? ANY info on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
     
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  3. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
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    Charles
    Sam--look back thru old posts--I have engineered and completed a total TEC-3 install on my 308v4 and 328

    NOTE-- I would NOT do it again--I would buy the direct spark units from Electromotive but wire them into a MOTEC controller--I am on my 3rd TEC-3 in 1 yr
     
  4. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
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    Charles
    Sam--please fill out your membership info so users can see where you are--if you are close to me you can come see my installs
     
  5. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
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    I NEED A JOB
    yea Charles rocks with the mods!!!!!!!! ^^^^^
     
  6. samtheclip

    samtheclip Karting

    May 30, 2004
    176
    Buffalo, NY
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    Sam Pasceri
    I did a search and had no luck with your install guide. Can you post a link to it?

    Thanks for the info guys!
     
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  8. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2003
    35,493
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    Sam.

    I have one going into my 246 Dino right now at the dealer. My mechanic seemed ok about it, before the install, and Nick has been very helpful with technical information and installation advice.

    I'll keep you posted as the install progresses, and let you know how the car runs.

    Having said that, I've also hear good things about the unit the Superperformance sells. The Super4.

    http://www.superformance.co.uk/parts/dino3/ignition2k3.htm
     
  9. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,507
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    I ran a haltech E6K for 3 years without a problem. I just replaced it with a E11 which also works perfectly. I upgraded because the E6 just didn't have enough power to run the larger injectors I installed with the larger supercharger and still run the DIS. I think they are a little harder to setup than some, but they are much more flexible too, it will fire 1 or 2 distributors, or DIS, and read almost any pickups including most OEMs (including ferrari), electromotive, motec, magnetic, hall effect. I've been happy with them for the most part. Rob at http://force-efi.com/ is were I got the E6K and he made me a great deal on upgrading to the E11. He can also convert you intake for you, he also has weber replacement throttle bodies.
     
  10. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
    169
    Sarasota, FL
    Full Name:
    Bill Smith
    Hey Mark,

    I have been looking into converting my 83 qv to EFI. You and Atlantaman seem to be the board experts on this subject and I have a couple of questions about manifold options and the ecu.

    1. What is the advantage performance wise of having the TWM style throttle bodies as compared to converting the original manifold? I would much rather go with the TWM style but cost is always an issue. I think the TWM's look like they came from the factory compared to some of the manifold conversions that seem to look out of place. I am not sure that the extra cost would be worth it though. It also seems to me that if I ever decided to go with a forced induction of some kind that the TWM would be a little more difficult because I would have to then fabricate an air plenum.

    2. I think on the TEC-3 ECU for direct fire you need to place an optical trigger in the dampner where the Haltech will run off of the already in place flywheel magnet trigger, YES/NO? The reason I ask is I thought that I read some where were you needed to do some kind of fabrication to your flywheel so the Haltech would pic up the magnetic trigger. I really have no idea if the flywheel has anything to do with it anyway. LOL Just trying to learn before I jump into the fire. I am leaning towards the Haltech and I am just trying to figure out what kind of extra fabrication would be needed if any?

    Thanks for all the great post

    Bill
     
  11. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
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    Charles
    OK--this will take some time to do--I have complete photo documentation of my conversion--expect a lot-o-posts to go with the following list.

    step required
    1) adding toothed wheel and pickup for timing.
    2) mounting direct spark boxes
    3) sizing fuel injectors( 308/328- normally aspirated= 19lb. units)($300)
    4) choosing hi or low ohm injectors
    5) making a fuel rail---looooong job $$$$
    6) making a throttlebody spacer-it needs to move outward to allow for clearance from fuel rail and injectors,
    7) wiring---TONS OF IT.
    8) plumbing--new fuel pump-filter-regulator
    9) adding wideband O2 sensors
    10) making new spark plug wires--what a pain..
    11) getting a PHD in engine management so you will understand programming the fricking philosophy of injection---(&*#*&%$#@*)!!!! destroyed 1st motor i tried this on.
    12) picking GM sensors and adapting them to fit your motor--lots of drilling and taping.
    will stop here before I get to the next unlucky number

    If you wanted to send me your entire intake system and asked me to do the machining/welding/etc--i would likely charge about 3000+ parts for the work.
     
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  13. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
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    Charles
    PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CALL ME FOR INFORMATION
    678-427-0435 CELL
    770-518-2784 OFFICE (try this first)
    CHARLES
     
  14. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
    169
    Sarasota, FL
    Full Name:
    Bill Smith
    Thanks for the reply Atlantman.

    I have followed your build up and have seen alot of the pics you have posted so no need to repost on my account. It sounds to me like the biggest problem with the TWM set up would be finding manifolds that work for the QV and the price may not be awhole lot different from what you just quoted. I am not sure but it sounds like the Haltech with TWM would be a little easier, fabriction wise than the TEC-3 set up and a modified manifold. Am I smoking crack? LOL

    Thanks
    Bill
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,507
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    The Butcher
    TWMs will flow a little better, but they are more money and harder to setup

    If you keep you stock distributors, you can use the stock crank pickups. The run DIS you need a home signal, something to tell the computer which is cylinder #1, but the stock triggers don't give you that. Electromtive does it by removing 1 tooth on there wheel. On my first setup I did it by switching to magnets, 3 north poles and 1 south pole and mounting a hall effect pickup(I made an adapter and put it in the stoch pickup hole). Now, it was not originally my plan to run DIS...there is no performance advantage that I know of, I just didn't like the price of new caps. I now have sequentail injection, to do that you need a cam position sensor. So I think you could run you 2 stock crank pickups in parallel or the main trigger line, then mount a cam sensor for the home signal, I attached a pic of mine. If running the pickups in parallel dos't give you a clean signal, the other chioce is to use just one of them and add 2 more pins (it has 2 now) to the back of the flywheel...it should be about a 30minute-1 hour job for a machine shop, but you have to pull the flywheel and put it back. Or you can mount a trigger wheel on the front, but you still need the cam senor if you want sequentail injection, which does work better at low rpm, smoother idle and all that.

    I know Rob at force quoted $600 to convert a QV intake, I don't know what Norwood charges. I thingk he told me his TWM style throttle bodies wer about $600 each, then you would need to find or make the intakes and linkage
     
  16. samtheclip

    samtheclip Karting

    May 30, 2004
    176
    Buffalo, NY
    Full Name:
    Sam Pasceri
    OK, what the hell did I get myself into? I should have just bought the HPX direct fire unit. I would have saved a few grand. I am already at 3 g's in part with the Tec3, sensors, wires & etc. By the sound of what I am hearing it will be another 3 grand + to finish this job. Hmmmm. I am starting to like my 308 just the way it is. Anyone want a brand new tec3 - LOL. OK, I am off to go smack my head against the wall for a while.a

    Cheers!
     
  17. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
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    pic1---maching intakes for fuel rails

    1) you will need to machine the "bosses" where the old injectors mount down by 1/2 inch, machine openings and epoxy "bungs" into them to accomodate the new injectors--the reason for lowering the area is to get the injector knozzle close to the airstream.
    2) with a ball endmill 3/4" mill out a small valley to install a fuelrail which will be welded to the intakes. note--the rear (back) of the motor needs to have the fuel rail dropped more than the front side so you can gain clearence for the throttle cable
     
  18. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
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    next--notice that the throttlebody needs to be spaced to the rear to clear the injectors--also see norwood's website for pics of similar one
     
  19. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
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    Charles
    here is a better angle of the finished product with all the stainless injector caps and tubes
     
  20. samtheclip

    samtheclip Karting

    May 30, 2004
    176
    Buffalo, NY
    Full Name:
    Sam Pasceri
    OK, excuse me for my stupidity but, is all if this necessary just to add a tec3? If so, could I just use the DFU's it came with and use them like the HPX? Once again, sorry - I know nothing about this but, I am trying to learn. Thanks for all the help.
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,507
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    Well, yes it is necessary. There are different ways to do the machining or mount the sensors, but you can not have Electronic fuel injection without electronic fuel injectors. The fuel injectors need a controler. The controler needs to know what the engine is doing (sensors), it also needs to be told what to do with the sensor info, so you need to program it. It is pretty straight forward, but there are quite a few things to mount or connect. Basically you need:
    engine temp (coolant sensor)
    manifold air temp (air temp sensor)
    manifold pressure (MAP sensor)
    RPM (main trigger)
    crank position (home or cam sensor)

    Those are the require sensors. An O2 sensor is nice to help with tuning and improve fuel milage. An idle air controler of so kind is nice to increase rpm when the engine is cold, it makes starting easier and it keep rpm steady with the A/C kicks in at idle.

    I used the stock fuel pump with a 350 hp engine, but you need to add a fuel pressure regulator.

    If you want DIS, you need 4 coils and a bracket to mount them. If you keep the stock distributors, you just need to run a wire to trigger them.

    Also, haltech does not build in an ignition module, so you need one. I use a MSD DIS-4 to run my for coils. A DIS-2 would be what you want for the 2 stock coils if you keep the distributors.
     
  22. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
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    Sam--yes-it is all necessary--and more---it took me almost 8 months to do the conversion working 8-14 hours/weekend---about 360 hours labor.

    to use teh TEC-3 to just do the direct spark is like killings ants with a sledge hammer

    If in the future, you think about turbos or superchargers--ets then you will have to complete the job anyway--they will not work with the original CIS injection system
     
  23. samtheclip

    samtheclip Karting

    May 30, 2004
    176
    Buffalo, NY
    Full Name:
    Sam Pasceri
    I guess I got way ahead of myself here. Hell all I really wanted to do was eliminate the distributors. I guess I should have just went with the HPX. They stopped making those from what I was told and have a new version coming out. I thought this would be the next best thing with out waiting for the new model. I was told the car would run much better for a daily driver if I went to direct fire. I am not skilled enough to do this job and I doubt anyone around here is either. I guess I will be ebaying it (damn!).


    Thanks for all the help and time.
     
  24. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
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    Charles
    Sam there are others on here that may be interested in your tec-3

    but you should do an ebay search for the hpx anyway

    I may want yours for a back-up if you cant find another avenue for sale
     
  25. samtheclip

    samtheclip Karting

    May 30, 2004
    176
    Buffalo, NY
    Full Name:
    Sam Pasceri
    SOOOO, could I use this setup for direct spark now and over the winter months when I want to add a turbo and a complete major service worry about all of that later? If so, could I do this myself? I am not at all concerned about overkill right now. Is this simple?

    THANKS!
     
  26. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    oohhh, that's not really true. It is true that the OEM spark stuff has some odd advance curves for emissions, but not too bad. You really won't see a big difference IMO.

    I thing you could. You need to mount the trigger wheel and the map sensor at least....but I think it would work with just that. Nick sells a kit for the trigger wheel I think, so that would be a bolt-on. The MAP senor just needs a vacuum hose to the intake, so that's easy.

    Then in the winter you can send you intake out to be converted, again I know that Rob at force was quoting like $600 to fit injectors and make the fuel rail, you might want to give him a call. He can set up the intake so all you need to do is bolt it back on. At that point all you will be missing is the coolant temp sensor, and that is easy because there is a plug in the ceter gally of the engine that witgh a temp sensor for the CIS already in it, just pop it out and send it to Rob with your intake and he will re-tap it for you and you're done....except a lot of wires to connect. Have you ever done any wiring? I'm sure the Tec-3 came with wiring instructions??? I can tell you that I don't have anywhere near the time into my setup that Atlantaman does....I probably am not as careful as he is, but I'd guess about 100 hours in the EFI part including all the wiring and troubleshooting a trigger and fuel problem I had...both of which were basically me not following directions :)
     
  27. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
    169
    Sarasota, FL
    Full Name:
    Bill Smith
    Atlantaman, MK E

    Thanks for all the input guys. I can tell already that this will be no small undertaking.

    MK E,

    I think I read on the TWM web sight that you could buy the throttle bodies for 300 bucks a peice. Of course you would still need all of the neccessary hardware to go along with it and that price may be incorrect. Kermit says he can fabricate the intake manifolds but did not have a price when I talked to him. What are the challenges of setting up the individual throttle bodies? No need to get to technical just some basics.

    I plan on doing this at some point and I am just trying to edumacate myself a little so that when I do decide to make the change I will have a plan of action. I can tell I need to pick up some EFI literature so I can learn the electrical stuff. Yuck!!

    Thanks guys for taking the time to answer some questions!!

    Bill
     
  28. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Bill,
    $300 sounds cheap...I wonder what is included....I paid $450 for my throttle body add it is just a throttle body, no injectors or fuel rail. A very basic 70mm throttle body is $300 from summit.....

    You can spend quite a bit of time getting the linkages right, you need some kind of air filter(s), some plumbing for idle air control and power brakes, more fuel lines. Nothing big, just a lot of little things like that that you need 4 or 8 of instead of 1. And if you are thinking boost in the furture, this would not be the way to go. It is a pretty simple manifold to make, but it is still a $2k job I'd guess.

    Mark
     

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