News

328 Engine Rebuild - Preliminary Planning

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by rob lay, Sep 8, 2004.

  1. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Social Subscribed Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    51,778
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    Well, unless someone can beat some sense into me and change my mind, I want to do this.

    The engine is still fine. Good compression, leak down, and dyno numbers. Only two cylinders a couple years ago over 10% leak down. Oil consumption only about a quart every 1,500 miles.

    Under any NORMAL circumstances, no reason in hell to rebuild it. Why do I want to rebuild? Just simply for the experience. I would like to be more hands on technical with my Ferrari. I've rebuilt good ole American V8's, I6's, and I4's. I want to experience Ferrari though.

    I thought about getting a 308 that needed some TLC, but I plan on keeping the 328 forever and this will be a good bonding experience for me and the car. :)

    I want to take my time and document everything for FerrariChat.com. I'm sure it will be an ongoing "interesting" story. I've about got Jennie convinced that once the 328 is paid off (next year) and if we fix the '93 BMW up a little, that it would be OK to add a 456. So I wouldn't be horseless.

    I would have PLENTY of support. Especially Norwoods. They would be working closely with me on this and will probably end up making as much money or more than if they rebuilt it for me. I expect that, but it's all about just getting the experience. We also have other great resources in the area, like Ric Rainbolt.

    So I would maybe like to get the project started next summer. A few preliminary questions...

    1) How much will just the parts cost?

    2) What else should I think about doing at the same time?

    3) At 8 hours a week, about how many weeks will it take me? I was thinking 6-9 months.

    Thanks,
    Rob "No Sense/Cents" Lay
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. Enzo

    Enzo F1 Rookie

    Feb 14, 2002
    4,077
    MinneSOta
    Full Name:
    Pat Pasqualini
    My 2 cents would say enjoy it now and buy the parts that you will need and wait until it needs it. Put the money away for now and let it make money for you until you really need it. If you are going to keep it forever than it is no big deal to wait until it needs it who know by then you might have more time on your hands. Very Cool project though! I don't know if I could be without a car that is my "Fun" car for very long though. Although you have the 355 and your mazda's. Either way it is a rewarding situation for you.
     
  4. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,384
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Rob in all honesty leave it be for now. Your car is useing a normal amount of oil, it runs strong, and it's not really leaking anything (I assume) in any areas were engine removal would be nessecery to fix. If you get in there and start taking things apart etc you may be in for a domino effect, and wind up with a big bill on your hands, and a car that you will get frustrated with. Like the old saying goes..if it ain't broke don't fix it. Maintain it and use it until such time it becomes nessecary to do it. Like the above post says..get all your parts together and put them on the shelf. Then when the time comes..have at it.
     
  5. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
    Global Moderator Owner

    Nov 26, 2001
    24,977
    E ' ' '/ F
    Full Name:
    Dindu Nuffin
    How about buying a long block from a Ferrari salvage specialist and rebuild that one? It would only cost a couple of thousand more, and your 328 would still be driveable during that 9-18 months. When you're ready, tear out your stock block, detail the engine compartment and fix the 'while we're in there' things, and drop in the rebuilt motor

    Just a thought
     
  6. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,384
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Good idea!!
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. atheyg

    atheyg Guest

    That was my plan, find a spare engine somewhere and hop it up with head work etc. take you time and put it in when the time is right
     
  9. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    Exactly. get a spare full unit, ready to drop in. Rebuild it with a few experimental bits and pieces and have a whole lot of fun and learning doing it.

    Power can be gained from compression, valve profile, ignition mapping and exhaust work all quite cheaply really.

    Get the unit all built up, including the gearbox etc (and change a few ratios while you're there, close 'em up and bring 5th down to whatever you expect your top speed requirement to be).

    Then, when it's all done and ready you can drop it in over a weekend and drive it again within 2 days of taking the car off the road....

    And if you decide you don't like it, someone on here will snap it up in a moment.....

    I did exactly this with my 360C speciale project. Took me about 4 months to get the work done, then just dropped it in and put the original in a corner until needed again.
     
  10. AR!

    AR! Formula Junior

    Apr 8, 2004
    974
    Berlin, Germany
    When I first considered buying a Ferrari I was informed that a rebuild of a V8 would require something like 15 to 20 kEUR. I suppose the bigger part of this sum would be labour. At that time I wanted to be sure that I can cover the worst case - total loss of the car or engine rebuild - w/o being pissed off b/c of the cost.

    After buying the car I found that one can get a NEW 348 engine for 10.000 EUR (just the engine, w/o ECU, transisition, etc.) and I recently saw a used 360 engine with 4.000 km on it for the same price.

    From what I can gather I would say that rebuilding a V8 engine is cost prohibitive ... ?
     
  11. Jdubbya

    Jdubbya Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2003
    24,059
    PNW
    Full Name:
    John

    Brilliant idea!! How come the good ideas are always so simple?
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Social Subscribed Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    51,778
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    I have thought about this, but I would want to put the new built motor in right away to see my work work. :) Then with the old one out I would be tempted to rebuild it just for more fun. So then I would end up with twice the costs.

    If you rebuild a motor, how long can you let it sit and everything remains OK? I would guess it is best to start using right away, but you might be able to oil stuff down and keep rust from forming and rubber from hardening. How about pistons/rings/valves sticking?

    I knew everyone would think this is a bad idea. I simply want to do it for the experience and while the two engine approach makes more sense, I think it would end up costing more in the long run. I've always had a weakness for a 308 GTB and could easily find one that really needed a rebuild. However, not sure I want both a 308 and 328 in the garage when a 456 and eventually a vintage 12 are on my list.

    Well, thought I would start talking about this early. Thanks for the advice, keep it coming.

    My two heroes have been Peter on here with his GT4 and Ric Rainbolt. I don't think either of their engines REQUIRED a rebuild when they undertook it. However, when they were done they had learned a bunch, had a perfect running engine, and it looked great. They are kinda my motivation.
     
  14. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Social Subscribed Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    51,778
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    I've actually heard from Norwoods that the majority of the cost is parts. You can figure 40-80 hours of labor would be less than $5,000. So parts must be $10,000-15,000.
     
  15. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,687
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Rob,
    Don't do it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Fixing one thing leads to another and another and before you know it, you have blown a rediculous amount of money to end up with the same thing you have now--a nice running 328. Use that $10K to get started on buying a 456.

    If you really want to get your hands dirty, buy a beater 308 and rebuild it. (Get a GT4 so you have something different looking from the 328). You will get the fun and learning factor, your car will still be on the road to drive for the year it takes to rebuild, and at the end you can sell the 308 for more than you bought it for. (You will probably still lose money of course, but chalk it up to learning.)

    Better yet, buy just a 308 or 328 engine to rebuild, put in some performance upgrades along the way, then sell it to someone here all rebuilt as a drop-in high-power replacement. I'm sure you would have plenty of interested parties.

    Just my $.02

    Birdman
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,819
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    Rob,
    I spent about $4k in parts to rebuild mine a couple years ago. A lot of big-ticket stuff was fine, like the crank and cams, so I just cleaned them up and put them back in. I had the cylinderliners re-coated for $80 ea instead of replacing at $240 each. The pistons measured in-spec so they went back in with new total seal rings. The heads were a bother. When I knocked out the valve guides some of the holes on the rear head and most of the holes on the front head galled a bit. So I had to re-bore them and make custom oversive guides. The good thing was that since I was making the guides, I finished the ID .0005" undersize. That let me polish the valve stems .0005 under and save the valves. I spent about 40 hours on the heads, probably 20 hours cleaning stuff, 8 hours to pull the engine, another 16 to put it back and maybe 15-20 on assembly. I wasn't moving fast because I wanted to be sure everything was right.

    I'm sure with the guys at Norwood looking over your shoulder everything will come out great!

    Good Luck!
    Mark
     
  17. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    Rob,

    I too look forward to the building of my ferrari engine. I do not look forward to the cleaning, removal of parts, cleaning, ordering of parts, cleaning or the cleaning but it needs to be done.

    What are you planning to do to the engine beyond bringing it back up to "new" specs?? More compression, cams, stronger rod bolts, balancing to tighter specs,stronger valve springs, new valves, better rods, light flywheel, porting, cc'ing the heads???

    If you are gong to do a carefull stock rebuild, then it is probably better to start with your "known" good engine, rather than buying a "core" engine of questionable crank, rod, piston, valve condition. you could get into a lot of money for reconditioning or replacing trashed parts.

    If on the other hand, you are gong for a serious improvement/upgrade scenaro, then reuseable cams, valve springs, pistons and possibly rods are not a big consideration. In this case maybe a core would enable you to continue driving and afford you the time it takes to assemble and research the goodies.

    One possibility not yet mentioned is to put your engine up for sale now for future delivery, have a few people drive your car with the understanding that in 6-9 months this long block will be available. This would probably be more financially rewarding and saleable than a lump in the corner of your garage.

    Next to driving, i think high performance engine rebuilding is the most fun you can have with your cloths on. I truely enjoy the enginering aspects of increasing performance and durability. Someone once said that if you are going to build a better car or engine than the factory, you had better plan on spending more time and money than they did building it and be willing to accept some compromises to get what you want.

    Assembly is the most fun. This is aided considerably by a comfortable environment, heated and well lit. Air power, plenty of layout space, an engine stand and proper tools help as well.

    I wish you well and look forward to hearing of your progress.

    chris
     
  18. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 21, 2000
    6,401
    B.C., Canada
    Well, it was a good thing I did pull mine apart as I discovered bent exhaust valves - which are ticking time-bombs - but really, I did the rebuild purely for the fun of it. I could've gone further into the engine (should've done the rings), but I'll save that for next time! I certainly learned a thing or two and forums like this one and the old expensivecar.com were the biggest help. I wouldn't have been able to do it without this.

    Be aware Rob, that your 328 uses those Nikasil liners, so I don't think you can even hone those, so I wouldn't touch that. But otherwise go ahead! Have fun! Its your car!!
     
  19. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 21, 2000
    6,401
    B.C., Canada
    Thinking about this when I was writing that previous post, a having-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation, would be to find an old 12, that is rough around the edges, but still nice, with a tired old engine and fix that up. A while back there was that white 365 C4 in your end that was rough. I often thought about how I'd love to get a hold on that as those really are great cars and I'd love to have one, but I really can't have two Ferraris now... Maybe that'd be better for what you want to do?
     
  20. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Social Subscribed Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    51,778
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    That's a really good idea too. I want a vintage 12, so get a rough 2+2 and take care of two goals at once.
     
  21. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,000
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    We went into this in the old Fchat. Ferrari's QV/328 WSM is very clear that Nikasil liners can't be honed because of the very hard coating that only the factory.

    However, a while later, someone posted that there are now some houses that cylinder liners can be sent to to be re plasma coated. (mk e, is that what cost you $80/liner?)
     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,819
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    Yes. For $80 they would finish the bore any size you want. So if your pistons are .0005 under, no problem, they can make the cylinders match. All the 2 stroke dirt bikes have been Nikasil for 10-15 years and now many of the sport bikes are too now. So stopped down at the local dirt bike shop and asked. He gave me a couple names of places they had tried. The only problem was that ferrari cylinder are taper bore (like aircraft cylinders) and they couldn't do that for me. The ferrari manual gives the bottom, middle and top bore size, I had mine finished to the mid-point dimension. I've got about 15k miles on it and it seems to work just fine.
     
  23. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    16,377
    Savannah
    Full Name:
    I NEED A JOB


    ROB, pm member Atlantaman, he has done things to ferrari engines et al that would make your head spin. i am extremely impressed with his modded 308 he brought to my house and let me drive. he has a highly modified 328 engine in his 308 with a custom fuel injection built by him and several other super cool touches. i am sure he would love to share info with you. best of luck to you, and thanks for this wonderful world you have created for all of us here. :)
     

Share This Page