News

330 LMB 4619SA

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by shaughnessy, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. Must see the interview we did with Piero Ferrari in Maranello! https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/news/297
  1. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
    BANNED

    Aug 22, 2003
    1,176
    La Jolla, California
    Full Name:
    Bill Noon
    Maybe Ocean Joe should double down and go after this one too?

    There are plenty of starving lawyers who could really use the work billing by the minute and solve nothing on this one as well.

    Ciao,

    Bill
     
  2. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,566
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms
    The more I researched the history of my Lotus 19, the more stories I collected on Don. He was still "Collecting" cars from his Suite in Club Fed.

    Funny how all those names all pop up every few years...
     
  3. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    claims of theft must have merit... anyone having the resources of Chairman Lee and the Blackhawk can crush any false claim... why do they keeping hiding the car, they should show they have a pair... ( ref various previous posts here )
     
  4. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 1, 2004
    1,778
    San Clemente, CA
    Full Name:
    Thomas E Shaughnessy
    I understand Blackhawk was less than cooperative with authorities, recalling the car.


    I was told by a reliable source Blackhawk/Williams was the exporter of record
    and documents were produced, exporting the car for a low value for customs.
     
  5. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    shouldn't surprise anyone...seems consistant with what has been previously said about Blackhawk being involved,

    what time frame did this export take place...

    there has been discussion here about the illegality of false export documents used on other cars, that can generate consequences
     
  6. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

    Jun 29, 2006
    1,054
    Santa Monica
    Full Name:
    Cheddar, The
    OMG. If true, the criminal liabilities of that would be very, very bad. Customs are not lightweights. Such an action could spiral into a Federal Prison for some people.
     
  7. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 14, 2004
    3,720
    NETHERLANDS
    #8 toto70_0, Sep 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here a picture of #4619 when it was in Germany in 1990, just found the proof of bankpayment in 1989 and copies of the official importdocuments into the Netherlands.
    Strange to me, in1977 sosaid stolen, then in 1989 official exported from the States to the Netherlands, then late 89 sold to Germany, then a couple of years later repossed by the bank which financed the car for the Japanese/German firm. Then 20 years later the sosaid owner from 1977 realises the car is worth big money and remembers that the car stolen 35 ago. Strange story but probaby not the last one.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    Il Cavalieri likes this.
  8. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Apr 2, 2008
    288
    Centre Europe
    Full Name:
    Christopher

    When I hear that come from someone who certainly knows his stuff, adding the dig ''solve nothing on this one as well'' I am the first one starving to invest in Ocean's next catch of another criminal in the Ferrari underground - aristocratic , bourgeoisie or dirtbag. With your methodical forensic number crunching Ferrari background you should have gone after some of the booty long ago ... it's not too late to place your bet on the right horse.
     
  9. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,485
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    I don't think this car has been hiding or the history is truely unknown. Why does this now come out as a possible problem?

    Did the "owner when stolen" just surface? I haven't seen that this is a NEW issue.
     
  10. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    770
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    there is another....???

    the story-and its all only a story to this point-is still unfolding...and its not limited to this chassis number alone-IMO...

    I have tried to post 3 times, rather more detailed posts about this chassis....they just never seem to appear!

    Factory files-GES and otherwise-on 4619 was purged at factory by mid 1970s-per factory correspondence...the drawer was "empty"...
    funny how a car that had no numbers on it in 1963 showed up for trials with a steel body, 3 carbs, reportedly no vin on head plate of frame, and sets 300 km/hr lap times for first time in history, then vanishes... never to be seen on a track again?
    Think about that for a minute-how ridiculous is THAT?
    -why was this car made of steel?-
    Parkes at the wheel-the hand picked test pilot of 163c/LM engined cars of this era(1st P car in UK), this car, the car at LeMans the year before.... all by Mauro...

    Pretty strange things going on in 1962, 63 and 64...Ferrari on the threshold of oblivion....you do what you have to do to survive and to WIN....same chassis? different bodies? different vins? what and why...thimnk about it, I have, there are only a few rational explanations based on economics and the realities of the day....
    I dont KNOW what the truth is, but as we know it, as its being told, doesn't seem to be plausible...some cars dont look the same, the story isn't consistent with the physical realities....even 50 years later...

    The attention this chassis number is getting in the last few years is very intersesting...

    For the real experts out there: all 3 carb, 163c/LM drysumps...how many, in what cars, in what events, when, where, current locations, test mule cars? where are they today?
     
  11. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    1,259
    The conventional wisdom is that Ferrari built four 330 LM (B)s.

    -4381 SA. Raced by Parkes at 1963 Sebring where it DNF'd. Also a DNF at 1963 Le Mans. Shortly thereafter, Fantuzzi rebodied it as an open roadcar. It was Gold when it appeared in the late-1960s Fellini film, 'Histoires Extraordinaires.' Before Violati purchased it in the early-1980s, it got reunited with its original LM (B) body. Sold by its longtime U.K.-domiciled owner in 2010. Now purportedly in Germany.

    -4453SA. Raced by Dan Gurney/Jim Hall in 1963 Le Mans as a NART entry, where it was a DNF. Purchased by Tony Wang in the late-1980s. Might have been recently sold.

    -4619 SA. Ferrari test car. The only one built with three carbs. The infamous Donald Fong car. Ended up with Chairman Lee in the early-1990s.

    -4725 SA. The only RHD example. The only one built with dry sump lubrication. 5th O.A., 1st in class at 1963 Le Mans with Jack Sears/Mike Salmon (Maranello Concessionaires entry). Recently sold to the U.K.
     
    Il Cavalieri likes this.
  12. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,076
    Terra: I can verify that both 4453 and 4619 have dry sump lubrication from the factory. Both cars have the oil tank access panel in the rear section of the right rear quarter window. The window itself is plexiglass, and the rear section is hinged to the front section and secured with a zeus fastener. Loosen the zeus and you then open the pivoting part of the quarter window to get access to the oil tank cap. I would bet that 4381 is also dry sump.
     
  13. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    1,259
    I stand corrected.
     
  14. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2007
    5,165
    Full Name:
    Steve
    He has bigger problems with Apple and the verdict last week of over 1B than this...
     
  15. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    he could always do a "mea culpa" by bringing the car forward, it could generate a lot of favorable publicity for Chairman Lee ( which has been in short supply the last few years )... at his level of net worth the negative publicity can cost more than the value of the car and he always can recover his costs from whoever sold him the car...
     
  16. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,566
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms
    What ever happened to Fong? He seems to have evaporated in the mid-late 70's.
     
  17. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 1, 2004
    1,778
    San Clemente, CA
    Full Name:
    Thomas E Shaughnessy
    He is still around

    Ted Rutland has recently gotten hundreds of thousand $$$ parts and literature out of him over the last 18 months

    Ive seen the goods

    Good stuff
     
  18. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 14, 2004
    3,720
    NETHERLANDS
    So he has the money to pay for the LMB, for what is was worth in 1977.
    All problems solved.
     
  19. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 1, 2004
    1,778
    San Clemente, CA
    Full Name:
    Thomas E Shaughnessy
    In america a stolen car remains a stolen car until things are settled
     
  20. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 14, 2004
    3,720
    NETHERLANDS
    OK, we will sought out all Italian sport cars which went to the States in the old days and porbably will find out that many where illegally exported out of Italy on a different identity.
    #4619 kept its identity from new.
     
  21. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,566
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms
    No surprise there, he was a serious player! One day he "owned" more important cars than anyone on the planet, next not so much as mention of his name.....
     
  22. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Apr 2, 2008
    288
    Centre Europe
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    That depends on if false documents are used to show a theft was settled. With a slick lawyer one can buy time , skirt the law, and get favors pulled if you are someone with a name. Then you can hope that the victim-owner dies and then attack the estate heavy handed ( if the car happened to be listed in the estate). It all depends on how deep your pockets are - for the thief and the victim. It's not going to be a light weight that hangs on to a stolen car - it's going to be someone that accepts amorality. I'd think that this 330 is impossible to sell - until this issue is settled.
     
  23. toto70_0

    toto70_0 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 14, 2004
    3,720
    NETHERLANDS
    What if we as a european have sent a car to the States to be sold by a dealer, and he tells us later that the car was picked up by somebody (Who died in the meanwhile) and the car is gone, later it turns up somewhere but we never had any money, so it was stolen from us.
    Can we try to get that car back, because that would be very nice, also long time ago approx 20 years.
     
  24. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Apr 2, 2008
    288
    Centre Europe
    Full Name:
    Christopher
    You need to have filed a police report and have supporting documentation . If you sent a car to the USA, you must have had a contract and export documents. You must have put someone in charge of your Ferrari. When a car is ''gone'' it should have been enough to move you to do something at the time - from calling the police to hiring a lawyer.
     

Share This Page