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330 tipo 209/365 tipo 245 engines in competition

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 246tasman, Mar 15, 2009.

  1. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
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    Will Tomkins
    Were any engines derived form this block used in competition by Ferrari?

    It is clear that the the 4 litre GTOs & 330 LMBs used the tipo 163 engines, but were the larger blocks of the 209 and 245 which looks essentially the same used in the later cars such as 330P and 365P?

    I can see no reason to use the 209 for a 4 litre as the lighter and shorter 163 was doing the job, but assume that the 163 was not stretchable from 77 to 81mm bore for a 365 engine. The question is whether the first 365 competition engines used a version of the 245 block or did they have new purpose made blocks for the job.

    Thanks
     
  2. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
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    Trying this one again, in the hope someone may know.....
     
  3. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2008
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    Greg
    I have a few technical literature regarding those cars which I acquired recently, if I can find anything that at least somewhat answers your question, I'll post.
     
  4. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
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    I don't think so, at least as far as the 4.4 liter tipo 245 2-cam motor is concerned. I think by that time, Ferrari had seen the light, for racing purposes, in the 4-cam motors. I would think that the casting architecture for the 4 cam block would be too different from the tipo 245 casting to warrant using the 245 mold as a starting point. I don't know nearly as much about Ferrari motors from the 1960s as I do about the 4-cylinder motors from the 50s; but in the 50s, Ferrari cranked out an unbelieveable array of motor types; I don't think the notion of making a new mold was something that really bothered them too much.

    As soon as I write this, I'm sure someone will correct me, but how many comp Ferraris actually used the 2-cam 365 motor? 0824, 0826, 0836 and 0838? I think it's kind of interesting that Ferrari kept using the 2-cam Colombo motor in production cars a good 5+ years after they stopped using them for racing; doesn't seem very "Ferrari"-like.
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    #5 miurasv, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
    10 year old thread.

    The tipo 214 engine used in the Ferrari 365 P Prototype cars is said to be derived from the tipo 209 330 GT 2+2 engine and made around 380 BHP.
     
  6. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
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    T. Monma
    From the machine shop guys:

    the 163 engine block shares the cylinder bore center spacing found in 250/275 engines(128D/F, F, 168, 128LM), referred to as: "narrow bore center" blocks.
    ...Thus, a 58.8mm stroke in a 73mm bore yields a 3 liter, a 77MM bore yields a 3.3 liter.
    ...a 66MM stroke, with a 77MM bore, yields: a 4 liter displacement-the 163/163C engines. These all had 4 bolt mains-comp cars are dry-sumped.
    This specific nomenclature refers to the distance between the absolute theoretical centers of the bores of each cylinder-thus: the later, WIDER spacing, allowed the 412 engines to carry pistons which took the displacements all they way up to 4.8 liters...

    The "narrow spaced" 163 engines struggled with two principle issues: torsional block twist, and, the inability to adequately get the heat out of the cylinder heads under severe(race) operational conditions..


    245 engines share the late, wider cylinder bore spacing of the 209 engine. This bore spacing is shared by ALL later 12 cylinder mills, up until the flat 12s....
    I have factory machine shop pics from the 1960's showing crank billets for Daytona and C/4 production(cranks getting roughed in in the background), showing ALL 12 cylinder billets marked with "209"(worthy of note: all "330 production had ceased at the time of the photos), to separate them from billets used in the 206/246 engines(different pile of billets, but this IS a factory/"mass production" environment....after all)

    The 4-cam competition blocks are not the same, in most respects, to the engines used in the street cars...
    The 330 P3, P 3/4 and 412P and P/4 blocks bare ZERO resemblance to the street blocks

    The SOHC, 330P cars, all used: "narrrow bore center" 163 engines-FWIW: the camshafts are several inches LONGER in 209 bore spaced engines-so there is NO mixing and matching here. Cam covers CAN'T be interchanged based on this length differential...
    FWIW-EARLY 209 engines-in my experience(specifically the 330 America, for example)-used surplus 163 chain boxes and the difference in machining is noticeable to the trained/experienced machine shop practitioner...This is the ONLY mix and match crossover between a 209 bore spaced component that is deemed significant(pans and sumps don't count IMHO)and a narrow 163 spaced component,but a chain box is perpendicular to the crank center line, thus its immaterial...

    this should help clarify the real differences
     
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  7. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    335S: Agreed, Tipo 163 chaincases and especially chain adjusters go quite a ways into 330 GT 2+2 production.
     
  8. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
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    Lowell Brown
    Many thanks for this detailed information.

    The lore is that Ferrari believed that the engines in his cars were by far their most important element.
    There are a thousand books about Ferrari cars. Many of them just picture books. Some have more details
    that contain a few words about the car's engine. Very seldom do they mention engine tipo.

    I think that it would be wonderful if a few books were written about the Ferrari V12 engines, starting from the first one. Books that would contain photos of the inside as well as the outside of the engines, giving details and numbers about the engines. Great detail would not be necessary about engines that differed only slightly from the previous ones. Many engines have stories about them that are as interesting as stories about cars -- how that English guy's bearings made the first ones work, how the transition from mouse trap springs to coil springs came about, ... .

    It would be great if a thread in this section was started to talk about Ferrari Vintage Engines. Maybe it could start with the quote above! Engine discussions in other threads could be copied and added to this new tread.
     
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  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    The factory has published at least two books about most of their engines. Sort of a catalog with major details, types and photos.
    One is a softbound book published by Ferrari in 2002 and has official factory print #1807/02, it is titled "All Ferrari Engines".
    It can probably be found at Hortons Books in the UK. Or from Luca Fornetti at his Shopping F1 Store in Maranello.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  10. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
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    Thanks for this information. I'm sure that this book contains some information that I do not know. However, it cannot be the sort of book that I would like to have written. This book has only 140 pages for every engine built. Ferrari must have made about 140 engines. So a page per engine cannot contain a lot of photos and information about that engine. There are books about specific Ferrari models. Why not a whole book about the early V12s? There is a book by Reggiani and Bluemel with several pages devoted to a single engine. But it covers only 6 V12s. It has 14 pages on the 195 with many photos. But the text is superficial. For example, one of the first photos shows the connecting rod remarking that it has an oblique-angled split but it does not explain why this is so. It states that this short block configuration "remained unchanged until the 1966 330 GTC" which is not true. It does not explain why it had inside spark plugs. It has a photo of the side of the cylinder head but it does not explain why the intake ports were small and had only one port for two cylinders. It does not have a photo of the top of the cylinder head that shows the 'mouse trap' valve springs or explain why these were used. There is no background story about how the first V12 engines were designed. And on and on ... .
     
  11. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    I have way more than one thousand individual and different Ferrari books in my archive and library, all sorts of languages, including Russian and Japanese.
    There are many books about engines. It takes a while, however, to go thru all the stuff………..

    Marcel Massini
     
  12. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2009
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    Ted
    It would be quite an undertaking to do what you desire...

    A shortcut that I recommend is to find and appreciate the “tid bit” information that IS readily available (e.g., 140 page book done by Ferrari)...then, use other, non-Ferrari specific texts to educate yourself on the nuances. E.g., I have a 300 page textbook on nothing but intakes and exhausts. IOW, most of the “whys” that you are wondering about are not Ferrari specific and therefore, are unlikely to be addressed comprehensively in Ferrari specific writings.
     
  13. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
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    Apr 17, 2005
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    There is one very nice book: The Engine Ferrari 365GT/4, a Japanese book with English translations on the same page or on the facing page.
     
  14. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    romano schwabel
    I think such you like to know is still ferrari secret. so why they did this and that and then changed again. only a former engineer could tell you this or someone working at that time in the factory in the engine construction office.
    but would be really very intersting to know more
     
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  15. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
    160
    If the tipo 209 engine was the basis for both the tipos 214 and 217, how were they actually identified.
    Marcel posted some great images of 217 chassis plates and a cam cover marked 209, but what is the difference between a 209, 214, and 217 engine?
    How would we know if a tipo 217 engine is not a tipo 209 engine?
    I have been told machining the 209 block to 81mm will cause overheating problems.
    Is that true?
     

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