348 Corvette Z06

Hi guys, a good friend of mine has a 348 which is in need of engine replacement/rebuild. He is looking into the possibility of transplanting something a little more friendly for high mileage daily use. After a few beers, we thought what about an LS7 out of a Vette.

I realize that a lot of you Ferraristi have probably just vomitted, but does anyone know if it would fit and is it possible? or should we just keep looking for a 355 or 360 unit to shove in there.

 

End your pain and buy plugzit's motor. It has been rebuilt and ready to install. That will be the cheapest way to get your car running and maintain any value. If you do an LS7 motor you will own that car for life because no vette or Ferrari owner would ever buy it period.

 

Thats like putting ****** on some super hot chick. Now she's not a chick anymore.
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You've gotta admit she'd have some serious tyre smoking grunt though.

And to be fair, his car is not a particularly well cared for example. She's been around the block a bit if you know what I mean. He has a few other exotic sports cars that are completely immaculate and original, but he just want's this one to be a bit of fun that he can use daily and not have to worry about.

We were thinking along the lines of a kinda different Pantera GTS theme. You know, American power - Italian styling.

 

I think its a great idea if you want the handling of a ferrari and the power of a supercar!! Obviously it won't be worth squat to any TIFOSI, but it will blow the doors off the other f-cars costing waaaaaaaaaay more. You will probably be using a g-50 porsche tranny to hold that torque, and good ones are not cheap. Just guessing I'd say you have 10-15k for a new LS7 and another 5-10K for a tranny that will hold up. Throw in more money for all the extra crap you will need and it gets quite expensive. You would be much better starting off with a spaceframe GT40 and having the ability of pissing off F-car owners AND ford lovers!!!!! ;o) Scott

 

I saw a Mondial with a crate GM 350 V8 (~~ 400 hp) at the track last weekend. He was using an Audi 5000 frontwheel drive tranny mated to it to drive the rear wheels (one presumes that the Audi is a front-engine, front wheel drive car so he is just shifting the engine/tranny to the rear).

He paid $50 for the Audi transmission and $4k for the crate motor, then had to machine the interface between the two.

It was reasonably fast. He shaved well over 300 pounds of weight by substituting those components for the OEM.

I'd buy his *completed* track car in a heartbeat, but taking on a project of that size from scratch would take up *way* more time/effort/risk than I care to invest.

Similarly, keep in mind that if you re-use the Ferrari tranny, that its gearing isn't going to be ideally suited for the different hp/torque curve of a GM V8. You might have 400 HP, but you won't use 70% of that efficiently, I'd wager. So performance won't be at peak, and you'll drink gasoline in a big way in the meantime.


So I'd second FBB's suggestion to just go with the proper OEM motor.


If I wanted to go the track-car route on a 348, I'd probably investigate existing mid-engine + tranny setups and rear-engine + tranny setups, such as a 911 engine + tranny mounted onto the 348's sub-frame, though. You might even be surprised at how little Ford charges for their GT supercar engine-tranny?

But there are lots of options that can be made to work if you are willing in invest time/money.

 

Don't Pantera's run a Ford V8 mounted in mid-engine configuration? What tranny do they use?

 

Pantera's run a ZF tranny.

One of the problems is the configuration of the 348 drivetrain: engine--->transaxle---->clutch. If you try to change the setup to a conventional layout: engine--->clutch---->transaxle (as it would be if you used a Corvette engine with a ZF or Audi tranny), then the drive axles would be moved rearward, which wouldn't work, unless you moved the engine forward, and there is no room to move the engine forward without displacing the fuel tank. I suppose you could have a fuel cell made to fit in the front trunk. The whole project would require more work than it was worth, unless you have the skills to do it yourself, plus money, plus time, etc. etc.

 

Why put an LS7 motor in it? Just get an F430 motor to compromise power with patriotism. There is no point in putting the vette motor unless you plan on making it a dedicated track car...

I would do some searching for a 355 challenge motor or to be creative, get a 512M/TR flat 12 - i've seen it done before.

 

Hmmm, in our 'slightly' intoxicated state, we do appear to have overlooked this one fairly big problem

We just really liked the principle of a good, solid American V8 motor powering a piece of classic retro 80's Italian styling. The thing is, my own 348 has always been cherished and looked after. It's exactly as Enzo intended (until the 355 box goes in it) and runs perfectly (exact opposite to my friends), but to be brutally honest, it isn't very fast by modern-day standards. My 2008 RS4 is an estate and will crush it in most area's - although, I still prefer the looks and feel of the 348! In fact I prefer the 348 to my old 550, but hey that's another story....

As my buddies car needs a new engine, it makes sense to look at it as an opportunity to turn it into something really, really fast. Yes, he could get a good 348 engine, have it tuned and even turbo'd/supercharged, but to save a lot of hassle, why not just start with a more powerful and stronger engine? I don't thing he is too bothered about the money side of it - as long as he is getting plenty of bang per buck!

We reckon a 355 motor will go in, a 360 maybe, even possibly an F430 for a real bit of fun, but can anyone really say that these engines will put up with the sort of abuse that my buddy will put it through. I mean, one day he'll be on track thrashing the balls off it and the following day he might be driving 6-700 miles in a day! In his 348 - which was his daily driver, had it not died he probably would've done 40,000 miles in the last 18 months.

Just out of interest, would an F430 mate up to a 355 manual Gearbox and what kinda price are salvaged F430 motors going for these days?

Thanks guys

 

How about a 4 cylinder? http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143301

Seriously, though, that guy should have some insight on mating the stock tranny with something a bit different

 

I got to tell you, that this doesn't seem like too bad of an idea to me. 1st, 348's are probably the best Ferrari to try this on - lots of room, cheap, widely available, etc. Now about the logistics. Hmm, seems some of the smarter gear heads can figure this one out. As for the concept, hey get over it. A hybrid 348 would be awesome. It's not like he's bastardizing some exotic, eh? Look, a 1990-1993 ZR1 engine would be way cooler with its high redline and twin cam design. It could even pass for a Ferrari engine. Of course that might cost ya dearly to acquire since they are pretty rare power plants. Okay, back to the 'vette motor. Why not, I say. I'd like to see the transplant. I got to admit, looking into the engine bay, I'm not sure how you can pull this off...

 

Your initial idea is the best. Miltonian mentioned already that the fuel tank would have to go, but that is not really an issue. There is plenty of room in the front for a fuel cell. It would make a great blvd bruiser!! Scott

 

Great points!


The Pantera's ZF tranny seems to have the half-shafts further forward, though...so you may not have to move the Ford 351 V8 into the fuel tank area to line up with the 348's existing wheel/fender positions...if you can live with the ZF extension coming into the existing muffler area (perhaps two inline mufflers on each side rather than the one rear muffler?).


How do you go about finding such a ZF tranny, though?
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There is a gt40 forum "gt40s.com". Plenty of info there on what tranny to use with what engine/adapters. The ZF tranny is probably one of the most expensive options. The majority of builders use the the g50/52. Scott

 

There is an f-chatter that is putting a Cadillac motor in a 308!

 

I am not sure a 360 or 430 motor will fit. the air intake ports were higher and will not clear the rear deck lid in the 348. Plus the cost of these motors will be insane compared to the chevy v8, develop less power, be less fuel effiecient, etc........but will sound so much better.

 

Hi,

some infos i found out

1. it seems that the 348 / 355 has much room ... but it realy isn't that much if you like to put in something different wich is not made for the proportions of that space.
F.e. the 348/355 engines are not that long so another 4 or 8 cylinder engine will maybe get in contact with the tank/frame structor infront of the tank. I only have 1cm
left there to the drysump pully. Also the space for the exhaust on a turbo engine with its big 3-4" exhaust pipes it is different to get over the axle shafts. So i had to move the exhaust pipe through the frame triangle in the hight of the gearbox mounting point. A straight 6 cylinder would never fit into it without removing the tank. The corvett engine maybe will fit in it.

2. The tranny , as far as i know all the damages on the 348 tranny are due to problems with the bearings or nuts not torqued correctly or whatever but i never saw gears with damaged teeth. Also the gears looks quite big and strong compared to other gearboxes i used with high torque engines. So i woulnd't think on replaceing the tranny to something different. Better use the stock tranny then you wont have a porblem with the ground clearance, shifting mechanism, clutch , axle shafts, ... If the 348 gearbox doesn't work i will find it out some day ... then the 355 would be a good option. I also know 348 and 355 turbo conversions with high torque with the stock tranny.

3. Problems if you connect another engine to a different type gearbox you have to make a flange to adapt the engine to the trannys bellhousing. That must be centered right otherwise you will have a problem so a CNC is needed also a CAD sketch of the flanges to get both exact center and put them together. rotate them a bit that all holes don't indeference each other. If some do you have to find a solution with special bolts or something like that. Also you have to make some pins to center the parts if you bolt them together later. The next Problem connect the crank to the gearbox. I wasn't able to get someone who can made that ferrari spline so i bought a 348 crankshaft cut off the end of it (a bit rough right? ) ok if you have cut it off you have to machine it to get the right length and the right flange on the other side to fit on your crank. Also this part has to be aligned 100% right in the center. Also you need a CNC for it. And many cutters because the crank is nitrated and very strong the cutters will break after some holes or even on half way of only one hole. If you finaly got your hole pattern into it bolt it to the crank and hope it is in the right length to cover the depth you added with your adapter flange between the engine and the gearbox. Next problem the shifting cables you need to assembel the cable holder and the pin where the shifting mechanism slides on to your engine. Not the the frame because the engine moves. These parts are very expansiv so you better use it from your old 348 engine because they are both bolted to it you can just weld flanges on your engine and bolt them to it so you can still use it if you like to sell the car and revert it to the 348 engine.

4. Torque problem on the clutch, if you have the old 348 with the twin plate clutch you can remove the two mass flywheel to a solid and grind some material down to get more pressure on the clutch spring. And remove the organic clutch friction plates in exchange to a sinter plate. If you got the single clutch you've got a problem. you can make a solid flywheel and mount a 7,25" double plate clutch to it. Sinter clutch discs with right flange are available from ap racing f.e. they have some delivery time mine take about 2 month to arrive. The pressure plate you can also use a high torque ap or tilton. Or you buy a 2 clutch stock system.

5. If you drive higher speeds for a longer time add a gearbox oil cooler to the system. You can weld connectors to the oilpump cover.

 

Thanks!

Also, here's a rebuilt Pantera Motor for $1,500: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-FORD-400-FMX-STYLE-SMALL-BELL-PANTERA-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ370062059293QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item370062059293& which direct mates to an FMX Transmission, among others


So for a few $k you could probably display those engine/tranny parts physically in a 348 engine bay (unassembled) just to test if they were even remotely close to dimensions that would work in the real world.

 

Well Said !?!? Good One

 

That was freakin HILARIOUS

 

How about this:
3sgte 4cyl toyota motor from mid-engine MR2. Driveshafts would have to be modified, however is mid engine suited and tranny is good to 800hp, I have built and very familiar with this motor and it should fit. Very light in relation to OEM motor. I have about $10K into my motor and race it regulary. As for durability at this level of power:

"3S-GTE MR2 powerplant, an iron-block phenomenon built strong as an artillery piece that had been run at super-stock power levels by everyone from high-school dropouts to Pikes Peak racers like Millen." Bob Norwood (same ferrari tuner) in attempt at Bonneville record. (dont confuse with 4age) http://www.mr2supercharger.com/FastestMR2.html When I think or hear "bulletproof" 3sgte is first thing to mind.

Other more powerful 3sgtes:
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records/dyno.htm

Like the torque? Yeah huge power curve, however, never see revs below 4K except at idle. Great for a track car. Saw same 4cyl garrett turbo setup in Lemans Lola car racing against audi R10s. Pic to the left.
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It can be done, but I wouldn't do it. It's like the slapping a Chevy 350 into the back of a 917 Porsche. Sure it will be fast, but it somehow just isn't a Porsche any more. Same deal with the Z06 427 in a 348. It will be fast, but it just wouldn't be a Ferrari anymore. So unless you are planning on driving it until it goes to the junk yard, I wouldn't do it. If you are planning on driving it till the day it becomes a scrap car, then have it it and post the pics of the build.

 

Ernie: I agree. In my new post, I echo your sentiments re: value etc. However, IF I had a track rat and OEM engine was SHOT.... I wouldn't spend $10+K getting another OEM motor with a "one-leg in the grave" $10K tranny, with <312 HP. IF racing, speed, and performance were my goals and not originality. Certainly I would go for the more power, reliability, and cheap to fix swap. Agree most track rats only have value as performers.