348 power quest... head rebiuld | FerrariChat

348 power quest... head rebiuld

Discussion in '348/355' started by TheItalianJob, Feb 26, 2010.

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  1. TheItalianJob

    TheItalianJob Karting

    Dec 20, 2006
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    Hamilton, Ontario
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    Daniel
    #1 TheItalianJob, Feb 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, the car has been running well but on track days i have been strugling for speed on the straights. Last year i made up some test pipes and removed the AC. It helped some.

    Its time to do my major service again over this winter so i thought i would pull the heads off and freshen them up. Also i have the gear box out and am putting some lower final drive gears in to give better acceleration.

    I figure the car is getting old and it may be time to freshen it up. Here are some pics as the adventure begins...
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  2. ferrari 512 tr

    ferrari 512 tr F1 Rookie

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    top thread daniel
     
  3. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,269
    have you done a leakdown test?
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The gears are a good idea.

    Dig a little deeper and put some pistons in it.
     
  5. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
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    It looks (can't tell for sure) like your engine has the black plastic timing belt covers - did you get them off without having them fall into pieces?

    I'm sure we'll all be interested in seeing your progress.
     
  6. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Nice work Daniel! :):)
     
  7. TheItalianJob

    TheItalianJob Karting

    Dec 20, 2006
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    Hamilton, Ontario
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    Daniel
    #7 TheItalianJob, Feb 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    yes, i should have done a leakdown but didn't.

    Pistons? for higher compression? lightness? i have been told the motor does not have the 10.5 ratio that ferrari claims.

    Yes, the engine has the black plastic timing belt covers but every timing belt service i put anti-sieze on the bolts and been lucky... maybe it helps... no problems with them yet.

    once the head was off (needed a special tool to get at the head bolts) i removed the valves... there is thick crusty deposit on the outter faces of the ex valves especially....
    and the inside stems were even worst. I didn't think they would be that bad.
    here are some pics...
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  8. jm348

    jm348 F1 Rookie
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    Mar 21, 2007
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    Do what I did for more power......sold the 348 and bought a 355 :D

    pics look great, enjoy her when complete. I do miss some aspects of my 348 but the 355 is pretty incredible. 360 next? :D
     
  9. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

    Feb 6, 2009
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    Excellent thread....keep the pics and narratives coming please.
     
  10. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 ernie, Feb 27, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2010
    Well since you have it torn down......

    A good port and polish, as well as a nice three angle valve job, would be nice. Maybe even have a back cut put on the valves while they are at it. Have the intake runners ported and matched to the head, as well as get the throttle bodies ported and matched to the plenum top. You may want to look into adding a spacer between the plenum top and the runners, to get some more volume inside there.

    But before you hog things out, slap it on a flow bench and see what everything flows. That way you can see what kind of gains you get.

    Nice job, and did you get my reply in your gearbox post for removing the diif?
     
  11. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Cool pics! :D:D

    Instead of pulling the heads, you should have just given her an "Italian tune up" to get rid of that carbon build up off the valves. :eek::eek:
     
  12. ferrari 512 tr

    ferrari 512 tr F1 Rookie

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    pap to the rescue
    what a legend
    lmao
     
  13. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    You know me well. :eek::eek:
     
  14. TheItalianJob

    TheItalianJob Karting

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    #14 TheItalianJob, Feb 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sounds like the plan.

    yes, I tried the diff thing for 15min and couldn't get it out. I will try with it on the ground next before i start removing the shafts.

    Removed the valves and did some cleaning of the head/valves and pistons. I am bring a head and the intake to a shop to get some input and maybe get it flow tested before to get a starting point and see where im at. Is there anything i have to know to make sure it is flow tested properly?
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  15. angelis

    angelis F1 Veteran
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    Will be watching this thread with great interest.

    Great work Daniel
     
  16. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
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    Can you tell us how many miles are on this engine, and what kind of gasoline have you been using? You say it is being given a full service "again", and you say you have used the car on some track days, so I assume it has been well maintained, and it hasn't been babied. I'm surprised to see so much carbon build-up on the valves!
     
  17. TheItalianJob

    TheItalianJob Karting

    Dec 20, 2006
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    Hamilton, Ontario
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    Daniel
    Car history goes as follows...
    Ive had it since new. It is a 1992. It has about 60000km. The first 10 or so years it had 93 Sunoco and after that Shell but not religiously... I have done the majors every 3-4yrs... so i think 5 in total i think. It has not been a problem car. Very reliable.

    The first 10 years it was babied.... new car and all. But I remember one year having problems with the slow-down light coming on intermitently and going in limp mode... the dealer fixing it temporarilly but finally ended up unplugging it and worked fine. After the next service i think i just plugged everything back in and it has worked fine since.

    Then i went through a few years where i hardly drove it. Then these last 4 years i started having fun with the car and going to track events and even some autoxes. I have changed the springs to 1200Ibs/600Ibs and revalved the shocks. Corner balanced, aligned, played with ride hieghts for car balance.... Put some nice rubber under it with 18X9 and 18X12 light rims in the rear. They fit and tuck in the fenders nicely with no mods to the fenders. I also removed all the susp bushings that were cracking/deforming under age and the stress of the r-compound tires and machined up some delrin... works great.

    I enjoy it more then ever now and these last couple years have been tracking about 3 times a month. I have a data logger and love how much the info helps in learning to drive and tuning the car. Anyway, it has turned into a track car with the odd Sunday cruzz.

    So i think it has been well looked after... I even had the injectors cleaned and flow tested 3 years ago during my last service... certanly not a neglected car.... I think with the age and mileage it would be expected to to some degree... just didn't expect that much... i am a little suprised too.


    -daniel
     
  18. TheItalianJob

    TheItalianJob Karting

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    #18 TheItalianJob, Mar 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    droped off one of my cylinder heads at a performance head rebuilder. He happened to have a 430 head there. I took a few pics i thought some might like to see...

    They are going to do some checking and come up with a plan... we were discusing going with as large an intake valve as posible. OEMs are 30.5mm intake / 27.5mm ex.

    If you look at the bottom of the pic... The valve on the right is the 348 intake valve, the two valves in the middle are 430 ex valves, and 430 intake valve on the left. The port shapes between the two heads are very similar on intake and ex. The big difference is in the 430 intake ports and valves... they are much larger then in the 348 but the ex side is only a little bit larger.
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  19. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Cool pic man, thanks for posting. :D:D
     
  20. TheItalianJob

    TheItalianJob Karting

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    #20 TheItalianJob, Apr 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    OK, we flow tested the head just to see where we are at factory...

    lift in ex
    .100 87 84
    .200 159 140
    .300 194 167
    .400 212

    I couldn't find any flow numbers for 348s to compair. Will flow the intake soon to see how that does.
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  21. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nice!

    Those are pretty decent numbers for stock.
     
  22. TheItalianJob

    TheItalianJob Karting

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    #22 TheItalianJob, Jan 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
    OK, i now have time to hopefully complete this project by spring. We flow tested the head just to see where we are at factory... then installed 1mm larger intake valves, then mounted the intake runners, then the lid. Below are the flow #s...


    OEM (30.5mm)......31.5mm valve.....w/mod intake...........complete intake
    ...................................................runners but no lid.........with lid, no TB
    lift.......in.....ex
    .100.....87....84.............90
    .200....159..140...........168....................166
    .300....194..167...........209....................206
    .400....212..................225....................223.........................211.:(

    The OEM cam lift is .36 and i should have measured flow at that lift. Anyway with oem valves i did do a reading at .35 lift and got 208.
    HP = 208 x .26 x 8 = 432.(but since it is not an all out race motor i take 75% of that and it gives me 324hp) So from my estimates i think the heads are good for 324hp in street tune if the intake system and exhaust system was not the bottle neck. These are approx. calculations and are just using them as a base for my improvements.

    The 1mm larger intake valve (31.5) increased the flow and velocity. If i estimate that it would flow 220 at .35lift HP = (220x.26x8) 457hp race x 75% = 343hp street. OEM velocity was 28 and went up to 34 with the larger valve setup. Not sure what the numbers mean since i am not a flow guy and trying to understand this as i go along. Its about a 20% increase in velocity.

    When i installed the intake runner the flow dropped only about 1% to apporx 340hp. So the runners seam to flow well.

    The problem comes when i install the lid. It brought me back to OEM flow at .4 lift (211). The lid is very restrictive. It may have a problem with its volume but i think the throttle body opening is the big problem. I and am wondering what is the easiest way to try different size openings without hacking up the lid until i know what i have to do to it. I would like to make this lid work.
     
  23. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 ernie, Jan 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
    Try putting a spacer between the runners and the plenum top, maybe an "1 inch thick (?). That should help with the volume of air inside the plenum. On the Euro GTB/GTS cars with the H block engines they fitted taller plenum tops on them. Plus, if you open the throttle body and look inside the plenum you can see the runners are right in the way of the incoming air.

    From my understanding you want the higher flow (volume) AND higher velocity (speed). It means that you are filling the cylinder with more air faster = the engine has a much easier time of breathing, it makes the engine a more efficient pump. What do not want is more volume and the same, or slower velocity. Anytime the velocity goes up that is a good thing.
     
  24. rbellezza

    rbellezza F1 Rookie

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    What a great thread ! Will follow it, very interesting stuff !
     
  25. ghardt

    ghardt Formula 3

    Apr 18, 2004
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    Many are watching. Thanks for sharing your work.
     

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