348 turbos and superchargers

Billy,

You might want to look at an Autronic EMS. http://www.autronic.com/

There's a local tuner here that's considered one of the best in the ricerocket world, and he swears by this unit. He uses it in his 500HP 2.2 litre turbo MR2. One of the models has a self-tuning program that will autoset the map if you follow the breaking pattern.

I haven't used it myself, but Aaron (the tuner) says it's better than the Motec at about half the price.

Just FYI

 

If you're referring to Aaron Bunch, according to http://www.atsracing.net/Aaron91MR2.htm he uses the Motec M4 Pro in his personal car, though he has tuned Autronics unit to the same HP level.

AutoTune features exist in just about every EMS on the market today, and they are about as useful as tits on a bull for tuning anything but the lightly loaded areas of the map. In a turbo car especially they are next to useless, as it's a major PITA to hold a map point for the 3-4 secs needed to adjust the map. Nice sales gimmick, but not a feature you should consider useful, besides which in the case of the Autronic you need their exhaust gas analyser, which just about doubles the price.

The Autronics (SMC & SM2) are capable units but, IMO, are not in anyway equal to the latest generation Motecs (M400/600/800/880). They were on par with, or slightly below in the case of the SMC, the M4/M48's, but like those units (and a lot of others) they suffer from the problem of insufficient spare I/O's if you want to do anything beyond the standard functions.

There are other problems with the Autronic in that it only has the capability of about 30sec of onboard logging for a minimal number of channels at a rate of 20Hz, granted it can log continuously to a laptop, but you have to have that laptop connected and running at the time, which isn't a practical option in a lot of cases e.g. a race car. Also there are many times when a problem occurs that you don't have the laptop connected and you miss the opportunity to diagnose the problem. With the onboard logging of the M800/880 you can store about 1 hour of data at the 20hz rate (4 hours in the case of the m880), and you can select which individual channels are logged and the rate at which the channel is sampled from 1hz to 200hz, rather than having to log a fixed group of channels at a fixed rate. There are also deficiencies in the diagnostics which make tracing a problem difficult with a lot of the other ECU's, Motecs diagnostics point you straight at the problem and you don't have to waste time trying to find the fault.

Like I said before one major advantage of the M800/880 is the spare I/O channels. For instance I have Wideband O2, 4 EGT sensors, Exhaust back pressure sensor, in cabin adjustable boost, ignition & fuel map control, Speed & Traction control inputs, water injection flow monitor, 3 axis G sensor, 2 stage rev limiter and flat shift switches on the clutch. On the output side there's boost control, water injection, shift lights, warning lights, idle speed control & cooling fans. All this and I've still go I/O's to spare. Try that with most other EMS's and you've run out of I/O's long ago.

I’ve seen people say that the Motec is complicated to set up, obviously they have never tried to set one up, apart from Plug & play EMS’s (which don’t seem to be available for the Ferrari) it’s probably one of the easiest to get going. Sure there are a large number of configurable parameters but they don’t all have to used, and if you take it logically step by step it’s not hard to do. You can just start with what is needed to get the car going and tuned on the main maps then add features as you go.

The new windows software is miles ahead of the others, though the Haltech E11 isn’t to bad it’s not as intuitive as the Motec software. The Autronic software sucks, it’s hard to find what you want and it’s even harder to figure out what to enter.

One feature I love with the Motec is that it’s firmware upgradeable and new software is provide free of charge, unlike the Autronic and a lot of the others that require chip upgrades, which means downtime and install costs. Some people complain that Motec comes with all the capabilities but you have to pay to enable some of them, like traction control, drive by wire, cam control etc, but at least they are available without chip upgrades and only take a phone call to get the enablement code and you can select which one you want.

Now for those that don’t reside in the Antipodes there’s the issue of cost, I suppose Motec have to pay for those fancy offices in the US & Europe somehow, but for me a new M800 cost about 50-60% of what you have to pay so there no real contest … Motec all the way

 

Let me know Carl if you end up doing it and what the cost ended up being...maybe I'll do it....

 

Indeed it is a major problem, IMO people often purchase an EMS based on the wrong factors. In the Import world decisions are based on Cost, Plug and Play convenience, marketing hype, or what is flavour of the month, rarely does anyone compare the functionality of each EMS and make a decision based on the facts. Most wouldn't understand what a particular function does let alone whether it is needed, useful or just marketing hype.

Cost was never an issue for me (within reason that is) and Motec's in this part of the world aren't that much more expensive than the others. So I could do a proper evaluation based on the features of the systems. I did this by reading the marketing BS, then downloading the manuals and seeing what they left out of the propaganda, then finally downloading the software and evaluating it for features and ease of use. Granted I have an advantage over most users as I have been evaluating software and hardware systems for over 25 years, but why people don't do even basic research is beyond me. Most take someone else's word, whom they've never met, that this is the system they need.

Sorry shouldn't have used Hz, I should have said samples per second. The reason that I used this example is that I had a problem with an engine that had detonation at around 6000-6300 rpm and I couldn't figure out why, ignition timing and fuel was the same from 5500-6500rpm, turns out the engine had a drastic change in Volumetric Efficiency around 6000rpm which caused the problem, Monitoring the manifold pressure at 20 samples/sec nothing was obvious, at 50/sec you could see that something was happening, at 200/sec it was pretty obvious (see attached samples)

Tuning an EMS is the same as tuning via mechanical means, it’s just that you have to apply your mechanical knowledge via the keyboard rather than spanners. What it boils down to is knowing what change is required and then figuring out how to achieve that with the tools you have available. The more you use a system the easier it becomes. If you know what you need to change then that's the hard part done, most people have no idea how to tune a car but they can

Hmmm, that's not the attitude of Motec Australia, or their agents in New Zealand. I have found them very helpful and confidence inspiring, but I have heard that Motec USA charge like a wounded bull and have the same temperament when it comes to customer relations, seems like you pay extra for the privilege of being screwed. Why more people don't buy grey market imports is beyond me. Seems that paying more and getting inferior sevice just for the comfort of a security blanket, which you will probably never use, must be an American cultural thing I am incapaable of understanding

And a question only you can answer, I'd be tempted to say "of course you can" but I have no idea of the extent of your computer phobia, or indeed if you have a passionate hatred for the metric system which you have to use with the Motec tuning (datalogging can be imperial though). Can you undertand KPa instead of in.hg and PSI boost for manifold pressure measurements, Lambda rather than AFR for mixture settings, or even cc/min instead of lbs/hr for injector sizing?

Also what do you by use it?

Do you plan on just buying the hardware and doing the install and tuning yourself? Or will you get someone to install and tune it for you? In which case will you just make use of the logs and make minor changes youself, or will you just treat it as a set and forget item like you stock ECU?

I started from scratch with only a one day Motec tuning course and no previous experience or any sample maps for my car. I made some basic mistakes along the way but by taking it one step at a time I got there in the end without blowing my engine and learnt quite alot along the way. You could get a head start by getting someone elses maps if they are will to part with them. However you still have to go through all the settings and verify that they are sensible and match the sensors and actuators that you have. As most people in the US are still using the M48 the files have to be converted and some settings are not the same, though the actual fuel and ignition maps are a great help in getting your car running so you can start tuning.

If you want to know what's involved in setting up a M800/880 I'm happy to go through the steps necessary. If I can find a way to download the 348 manuals from the owners site past the firewall (or get a pdf copy elsewhere) I can probably make the settings match the stock sensors. This is something I'm very interested in doing as I intend to turbo my 308 and use my M800 to tune it as soon as my finances recover from my recent purchase of a Kiwifruit & Avocado orchard

 

Soprry for the delayed response everyone, I've been at the little country cabin for the past week. I'm back now, refreshed.

Billy,
I wouldn't be frightened in the slightest of the Motec complexity if I was you. Yiou can simply go to the Motec sight and download a tuning and installation tutorial that you canm run on your home PC for practice. It is the way I learned my basic motec skills.
Yes, I do tune the ecu myself and would be more than happy to share all my maps and setting with you.
Yes, Motec can use all the Ferrari factory sensors, my car dopes. It is no problem at all.
I'm surprised to hear that Motec wasn't helpful to you. I've consulted with them on the phone a ffew times and they've been no less than great. Who'd you talk to? I can make a call for you if need be.
If you set up the car yourself and can provide sufficient data, I'd bet, between Mark and I, we could make it start. From there, you could street tune it.

 

great keep us all posteed. we're in your corner.

 

I have an Autronic unit on my Koenig Testarossa, and I am very happy. My mechanic worked with Motec, but switched to Autronic. He prefers Autronic, believe he mentioned better tech help. They're both good, but cost was a factor with me. Autronic is closer to 1/3 the cost of the Motec. I will not race competitively, not sure you need the extra features of the Motec (even though Autronic has boost control, launch control, etc.).
We turned up the boost yesterday, from 12 to 17 pounds, 660 rear wheel hp. Need to change intercooler next, 1987 technology. Will post dyno graph in a few days. Good luck.

Taso

P.S. The Ford Shelby Cobra Concept car used Autronic on their 6.5l V10