348 vapor canister purge valve removal

Well, it looks kind of similar, but the Ferrari one has two hose barbs at the top, whereas the Fiat one has one at the top and one at the bottom.

Dennis McCann doesn't have the one he lists for $225 anymore, so I am kind of stuck.

Ernie, where did you find a cross-reference between the canister and the Fiat Duna?

 

Dang, I thought my google-fu was pretty good, but I can't find jack about that part. Do you remember what you referenced? I tried to look up Idenova, but that seems to be a dead end - as far as I can tell, that company is on the trash heap of history.

I sent a letter to a company that claims to specialize in Activated Carbon to see if they know what type is used in fuel vapor canisters. The stuff is cheap - maybe $90 for 50 lbs. which is enough for many canisters. Then I just have to figure out how to take it apart and put it back together...

I do know one thing: I damn sure ain't paying $800 for $20 worth of activated charcoal and a tupperware jug to keep it in.

 

I would think we could cut it open and replace with new charchol. I wonder what breaks down such that charchol bits end up in the intake of a broken canister. I bet we could solve that problem. The more we expose this issue the more people seem to find charchol bits in their intake tracks! I think this Problem is bigger than anyone thinks and effects ALL ferraris not just 348's. We are the most brave of ferrari owners willing to tear into these cars. Most owners never change their own oil let alone take a plenum off.

 

1 cu. ft. of Virgin, Coconut Shell Base, 4X8 Mesh, Granular Activated Carbon. $80 including shipping to Reno from LA.

This is supposed to be the right type for Automotive Fuel Vapor Canisters. We'll see.

Now, how to open her up?

As for the leakage of carbon into the intake tract issue, I bought two of these: http://www.jegs.com/i/Russell/799/645150/10002/-1

One will go on each hose: one on the hose between the canister and the tee that goes to the two purge valves, and one on the hose between the canister and my new anti-turnover valve.

A couple of new Hyundai purge valves and that should keep everything working smoothly.

Hey! At $800 per, maybe I can start a re-pack business...

 

Randy...I like it. But I would have tried to cut the canister open first to note the construction or lack thereof. I would think that the top must be glued on and I bet you could slit the seam like we do with the alarm modules to put new bateries in them. Post pictures and lets take it apart. I forget exactly what a purge can looks like. Isn't there a seam on the top of the can? IIRC the can is like ABS plastic. Another possibility is to find a strip of plastic like the can about the can diameter by 2" by the can thickness. Then cut the can in half. Fix the guts of the can. Wrap the can halves in the abs plastic and use ABS plastic glue to paste it together. If you can find the right glue and what plastic the can is made from it will melt when glued just like ABS plumbing for sprinklers and will be stronger than the forces on the can. We need the can repair to be strong because it is part of the fuel safety system as well as evap emmisions.

 

Yeah, I am thinking along those lines. This is one of those deals that are hard to tell in advance - until you have the thing all cut in half. I sure would be more enthusiastic about the project if I had nailed one of those $225 ones from Dennis McCann before they went bye-bye. Oh well. Worse comes to worse, I can always just cap the intake manifold lines and put a filter on the tank air vent. My new anti-turnover valve will still work just fine canister or no.

 

I am back on this. My car had been out of action with a bad thrust (throwout for you mortals) bearing. Finally got a new bearing from GT Car parts and rebuilt the part with the new bearing and some new seals. Saved hundreds there. (Pro Tip: when you re-assemble your hydraulic components use hydraulic assembly lube.) Had my custom made exhaust put together by some good guys here in Reno - Infinite Velocity Motorsports. Car sounds much better. Much, much, better!!

So I go for a drive yesterday in the blazing Nevada sun. After I shut her down, the engine compartment is whistling. Loudly. I open the gas tank a LOT of air comes out. I don't think my canister is working right at all. That sucker is getting cut open this weekend. Pictures to follow. Also, maybe the pressure in the tank is causing my persistent check engine light. I mean, wouldn't that throw off the pressure compensation on the fuel delivery system? Causing the ECU to compensate in closed loop by changing the mixture, but it goes beyond the limit and the light lights? Maybe?

So I took it all apart last night. Nothing seems obviously plugged, but I am going to put her together with just a filter on the tank vent, and cap the manifold ports. See how she runs then, and check the tank pressure. That would be so cool if that effing light goes away!!! Then I'll start adding parts back and see where it gets funky.

Also I am going to give my evap valves the Ernie test. I figure they're good as my tank is over pressured not under, but we'll see.

More to follow...

 

Very interested in what you find, Randy. Best of luck on the job!

 

I can state without a bit of doubt or reservation that all of you have sucked activated charcoal into your intakes. You probably have some in your gas tank as well. The service manual says that the canister is supposed to be replaced every 60K Kilometers. At $950 a pop that is ridiculous. Anyway:

The canister has a seam around the bottom. I carefully hacksawed all the way around the seam (pictures to follow). Inside are three "filter" set ups. They consist of pieces of foam backed with steel mesh. Not so bad except for one thing: as the canister gets old the outside warps. That means that the seal between the edge of the filter and the canister wall loses integrity. I found about 2 tablespoons full of powered charcoal down in the bottom below the lower filter.

Solution: Isolate the canister with two gas line filters: one on the line to the electrovalves, and one on the line to the gas tank. Also, either replace the canister with a reasonably priced one that you can afford to change once in a while, or rebuild it with new foam and activated charcoal.

I can also state without a bit of doubt or reservation that the cause of Ernie's imploding tank was not *only* the malfunctioning valves. If it was the valves at all, then his canister must have been at least semi-plugged. Otherwise the vent on the canister would have relieved the vacuum before it could have ever caused damage to the tank. It's a relatively large and simple vent.

I think that more likely explanation was that his turnover valve got stuck shut. There's a drawing of it in the service manual, and it would be no surprise if that happened. I am def. installing my new turnover valve.

Right now I am riding bare bones. My tank is simply vented to atmos. with a fuel filter to keep crap out. I drive the car, open the gas cap, and get no annoying whooshs in or out. My manifold vacuum lines are plugged. I tried to run without connecting the electrovalves, but the computer detected that and threw CILs on both banks after about a mile. So now they are connected electrically, but that's all. After I install my new turnover valve I may just leave it like this. Hey, I could run my Mondial like that for a thousand years and still only emit one billionth of the HC being dumped in the Gulf as I type these words.

Unfortunately, my persistent CIL on the right bank was not related to the evap system. Still in the hunt on that one.

Pictures to follow.

 

If you buy VW bug fuel filters they are the perfect plastic see through ones that work perfect for filtering the can. I bought mine for less than $2 bucks each online.

Be careful you delete fuel system parts because they are designed with safety in mind. You need to have rollover valves not just vent to the sky. You would be surprised how much burning fuel can come out of a 7mm hose. You will also get fumes in your garage also not a god thing when there are things like water heaters in there.

You got any pics of the can autopsy?

 

I am going to install my new turnover valve tonight. I drove for about an hour today, baking in the sun, and sure the whole time some old lady in an Escalade was going to bump me off the road where then I flip her and land upside down. I can just see it: strapped in, can't open one door, the other is blocked by a big boulder, and what's that dripping noise? Ohhhh Shhhiiittttt!

Yes, ineed the t.o. valve gets installed tonight.

I will vent it to atoms. for now, but my garage doesn't get very hot even though I'm in Reno. No water heaters. Even without the t.o. valve I don't notice any fumes. I got some very nice alu. filters with replaceable sintered brass elements. They were $12 each, Russel brand from Jegs.

Pictures of the can to follow. I'll take them tonight.

Maybe tomorrow I'll haunt the local wrecking yards and see what might be a good replacement for the can. I wonder if we have a pick and pull here? Yep. Right next door in Sparks. Cool.

 

I got a pair of purge valves from some guy on ebay, $90 for the pair. Just like Ernie, I got one Bosch, made in Germany, and one Hyundai, made in Korea. Go figure.

I am converting my fume system to use a canister from a Plymouth Neon. I am mocking up the conversion with one I got off a car at pickypull, then I'll get a new one for $83. Beats the Ferrari part at $897, I'd say. (Even though I was all ready to rebuild my Ferrari one with fresh charcoal, I broke one of the little barbed nozzles, so decided to get creative.)

Sorry I haven't posted all the pictures yet, but I will. I will. (Forgive me. I am cleaning up a 5 year old mess at work - a real nightmare.)

Thing learned: The turnover valve causes positive pressure to build in the tank. It doesn't release fumes until they build up to a certain pressure. My impression though is that my new valve doesn't let the pressure build up so high. When I open my gas cap, the "whoosh" is somewhat less than with the old valve.

If that valve malfunctions so that it won't let air in, you would def. get a crushed tank. That is why my new one has a filter on it, to keep crap from slowly building up in the valve, and causing it to malfunction.

 

I got lucky and got an OEM one from some Ferrari parts place in Sacramento for $50. There's a guy in England who has them for $90. I put a link in the parts source thread.

pictures
Yep, yep. I know, I know.

Hey Ernie, now that I have your attention, remember that argument we had where I said that bad purge valves could not have crushed your tank? Well, take a look at the parts drawing here: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=3068

You'll notice that, in the inset "Valid for SA", there are no purge valves! The line to the manifold is always open on that model, so that manifold vacuum must not be all that strong. You must have had some other issue in addition to your bad purge valve. Either a plugged canister, or a stuck turn over valve. I suspect stuck turn over valve, but it could be either one.

Anyway, the other day I backed off the edge of a cement driveway into what looked like a gravel parking lot, but there was this 8 inch step, so now I am down with a broken shift cable mounting bracket. Looking for a used one, but no luck so far. That's a $300 eff up.

 

Check with plugzit. He is becoming a ferrari junkyard.

 

Great writeup and documentation Ernie. Photos make these sad stories interesting.

 

Here at long last I have photos of the inside of your $900 piece of plastic. (Plus my $13 replacement )

http://picasaweb.google.com/114024713251495563791/348VaporCanister#

The first one shows the inside of the canister. Two chambers are connected at the bottom.

The second one shows the carbon "filter" system. The carbon is packed into both chambers, with one of the small filters on top in each chamber. The bottom filter is spring loaded to keep the carbon pressed into place. When I disassembled the canister, there was about a gram or two of fine carbon dust below the bottom filter. Maybe the purge vacuum doesn't suck the fine dust into your engine, maybe it does.

The third picture shows the f-part next to a canister from a '93 Neon I found at Picknpull. It's not pretty, but is quite obviously much more robust than the Ferrari one. I found a new one online for $83, but the old one is working just fine. With new purge valves, and the Neon canister, I eliminated one of the last two sources of CELs.

Maybe some day I'll put a pretty new canister in there, but for now, the junkyard part is working just fine.

Next I need to get some shots of how I installed it. I have three of the Russel filters protecting it, my turn over valve, and my engine.

 

I carefully sawed all the way around the bottom seam with a hacksaw. I still have the old charcoal. I'll take a picture tonight. I also have new charcoal if anybody wants some, I'll sell anyone who wants it more than enough to refill a Ferrari canister for $20 plus shipping.

I probably would have gone ahead and re-filled mine, but I broke the flimsy nipple where the line from the tank attaches so that was that. Now that the Dodge part is in place, I think I'm better off anyway. Still, it's not exactly a totally sano install, so I would understand wanting to just re-fill.

In other news, I'm finally, finally, finally installing my new (to me) damper !!! along with a rebuilt clutch from the Clutch God of San Jose. Maybe, at last I'll be able to pull up at a stop light next to a nice looking woman in another convertible and not have to keep the clutch pedal depressed the whole time so she doesn't hear my car's "hoopde rattle".

I just got on the computer for a minute to check something and grab my camera. I'm a take a bunch of pictures and show you stooges how to do it RIGHT!!

 

The damper deal DID NOT GO AS Planned! Triple Crap! I am still getting the noise. It is subtly different though. Now I am wondering if it's my tranny. I am in the (slow - too busy as usual) process of isolating this issue to the tranny. If it is, does anyone know anybody who is really good at rebuilding them? If it's not, that means that I have two noisy dampers, and that's it. My clutch guy is very good. By the way, the new clutch is really sweet! So, I'll get him to make me a clutch plate with springs in it, and then I'll lighten and weld up that damper.

Anyway, here's a shot of the carbon particles that were in the Ferrari canister.
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