Hi All I’m getting a very strange clutch overheat warning (which I have documented in other threads on the 348/355 forum), and I’m wondering what it actually is that sends this overheat message to the computer. Is it just a basic temperature sensor of some kind and can it be easily replaced? Long story short; the message is false. The car drives fine and there is no beeping for 10 minutes or so (until the car is thoroughly warmed up), then the symptoms are that whenever I come to a complete stop, once I go to accelerate off again I get the beeping until the car has passed through 10mph or similar. The beeping starts the moment I touch the accelerator. It stops if I take my foot off the accelerator. This has stumped everyone from the factory down. While I wait for the factory to come back from holidays I found myself wondering if it could be as simple as a faulty temp sensor. Any ideas much appreciated. Thanks.
I agree with Dave no temp sensor. Similarily I think it is a function of rpm vs time to move(confirmed by sensor under trqnsmission)
Does it do this if you do an agressive start? Does it do this in automatic or slippery mode? Need more data.
The clutch is definitely not slipping. All parameters have been checked multiple times and they are all where they should be. It takes only the slightest of slight touches on the accelerator to start the beeping. You could literally rest a shoe on it without even increasing engine rpm and it will beep. Is there some link to the accelerator? It does it in automatic mode, not sure about the rest. Next time I drive it I’ll try an aggressive start. The clutch position sensor has been replaced (not because the old one was faulty, just that it was recommended when they did the clutch release bearing). This issue never occurred with the old sensor, and I have suggested many times that perhaps the new sensor is faulty but there has been a reluctance to change it again because all the measurements (readings) seem fine.
Like the old saying goes If no problem then you change something and now a problem it is likely what you changed. Also try the low friction mod as well since it is supposed to allow slipping without giving an error. To confirm the rpm does not need to change plug in an obd2 scanner and watch the rpm digitally
It may not be the sensor malfunction as much as the position of it. This forum proves time and time again when someone says its not bla bla bla and it is. If I had a dollar for each of those sayings.
Just reading the workshop manual Vol 2 "D14" and it does say that part of the logic which goes into the overheat warning includes sensing throttle position. Is your accelerator cable too tight? Resting your shoe on the pedal might be moving the throttles very slightly (not enough to be heard in idle speed, but felt by the TPS). Or the TPS could be faulty and sending small electrical spikes to the F1 system (which is interpreted as foot on/foot off lots of times by a small amount) The F1 system also looks at engine coolant (water) temperature in its clutch application algorithm. I can't see the water temp sensor in the F1 wiring diagram, so I assume the temp sensor signal goes through the Motronics ECU to the F1 TCU.
Post screen images of the F1 TCU errors and parameter pages with the SD1, SD2, SD3, or SDX and I can review with a tech I know. See this thread for examples: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/learning-using-and-documenting-the-use-of-an-sd2-on-a-355.554993/
Thanks everyone. All helpful info. Grant, like you I still can’t get past the fact that this problem never existed until they put in a new CPS. Surely the problem most likely lies there. Ian, I did wonder about the TPS. Will ask the techs about that. Dave, I have seen screenshots but don’t have them with me. I’m sure they would be happy to email them and when I get them I’ll forward to you. Having said all of that, the final part of the equation is that the beeping does not happen when the car is “cold”. By “cold”, of course I never start it up and just drive off. I always go through the usual warming cycle of letting it idle for around five minutes, then not going above 4K rpm until everything is nice and warm. What I mean is that for around the first ten minutes of actual driving and three or four complete stop / starts it doesn’t beep at all. Only after that does this problem appear. If it was just a faulty sensor, wouldn’t it happen all the time?
I just spoke with Matt. As I thought - no heat sensor. The over heat condition is a calculation based on engine RPM (flywheel), input shaft speed and clutch position. The clutch is slipping and therefore the system is sending the signal "over heat". You may not be feeling it, but the system is sensing it.
Thanks Dave. I’ll pass that on. If it really is slipping, it must be an incredibly small amount, and surely not enough that it should trigger the warning. If I stop on even the tiniest of backwards slopes, put the car in 1st, and take my foot off the brake the car rolls backwards. It does not appear to be grabbing at all. Every tech who has looked at the car is convinced it is not actually slipping / grabbing or whatever. Is there a definitive way to tell if it is?
Thinking about this a bit more and going back to what I said previously, If that’s the case why doesn’t it beep right from the start? This problem started when they replaced the clutch release bearing (with a HE one) and the clutch position sensor. If it’s not the sensor, could it be the bearing?!
Matt has told me that the car will behave very differently hot vs. cold. (the measurement will be different). I doubt it's the sensor or the throw out bearing - it's likely the way it's been setup. I got flammed many years ago with this thread: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/10-15-minute-warm-up-is-a-must.422411/ For an F1 car, I stand by my comments
Fair enough. All I can say is that this problem has gone right back to the factory (including people who were directly involved in the 355F1 development) and so far everyone is scratching their heads. These people have seen pages and pages of SDX data from my car. It will probably come down to something simple, and it will probably relate to something that has been changed (during the whole drama with the gear selection problem so many things were replaced it’s almost too hard to keep track). When it is finally sorted I’ll let everyone know.
With all due respect, Steve - these people not being aware that the clutch has no "overheat" sensor is very concerning.
Allow me to clarify, Dave. I’m sure they are aware of it. I am asking the question. Not them. The current situation is that we are waiting for the factory to go back to work (the factory shuts down in August as I’m sure you know) for some more informed suggestions as to what is going on. I am happy that the major issue has finally been solved and I’m enjoying driving my car for the first time in 18 months. It is driving beautifully. I’ve been assured that in the meantime the beeping issue is not something I should be worried about but I’m curious as to what might be going on, and of course it is annoying, and of course I’m always interested in learning more about the system.
Yes - and you can see it in the TCU parameters page. I'd be interested to see the "Clutch overheat time" Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Not to pick on a tech But I believe they did something wrong When the car is cold the clutch engauges at a higher rpm so a different set of parameters as Dave said Tps was what i was getting at so for you to look a rpm and ensure its not sensing Maybe the clutch was not bled correctly so air is causing a problem, not sure but it would have been bled after the new setup and would also prevent the clutch auto matically setting its new pis. I would als confirm it is bled corrctly and the clutch was replaced to the exact specs as designed. I feel the factory is expecting all the repairs to be done correctly and that is partly why they have never seen this. Just guessing of course and time will tell and the solution will be found If none of these things work I suggest starting back at the beginning and redo the clutch again
I thought i said same as Dave but it is definately the way its been setup. Ps Dave you also go flammed for suggesting the F1 pump motor is not replaceable yet mine is proof it is.
