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360 CS -vs- 360 modified

Discussion in '360/430' started by Doody, Feb 9, 2004.

  1. Doody

    Doody F1 Veteran

    Nov 16, 2001
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    Mr. Doody
    guys:

    i need some education here.

    the early returns suggest that the 360CS isn't entirely measuring up to FSpA's reports of weight, performance, and the like.

    aesthetic issues aside, i'm questioning whether it'd be wiser to buy, say, a fully-sorted, pre-owned 1999 or 2000 360 coupe with miles (20K to 30K) and make some mods to reduce weight and increase performance on it.

    it seems that the CS isn't the huge improvement on the Modena that was originally expected.

    this path would save a ton of money. higher mileage cars seem to be going for much shorter money, and if you can get 'em fully sorted/serviced and invest a few dozen $K you're still well under CS MSRP, never mind the aftermarket markups if you're not waiting for your delivery already.

    i've long been considering buying an early 993 C2 and modifying the crap out of it to turn it into a street-track hybrid. total outlay wouldn't be that big. clearly it'd be a bigger outlay for a 360 than a 993.

    aside from the obvious issues of time investment and resale, which are rational concerns, why wouldn't i want to do this rather than buy a CS?

    yeah, the CF brakes are major bucks for an upgrade project, but it's also not clear yet that they're maybe not worth the hassle (cf. GT2 problems, Enzo problems, etc.) for a non-100% track car.

    curious,
    doody.
     
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  3. 96impalaSS

    96impalaSS F1 Rookie

    Dec 8, 2003
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    If you do a good job on it and dont skimp on parts and labor I'd much rather have a modified 360.
    The CS is a cool car and I love that stripe... but a koenig or novitech 360 would be alot faster and alot rarer.
     
  4. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    And if you get a Euro 360, you're already almost down to US Stradale weight... or maybe even less. Go get the CF parts already available for the 360 and pull the carpets out and you've got the US Stradale beat by a long shot, weight-wise.

    If you do the same intake/exhaust mods we've been discussing for the CS in other threads, you'll probably be with a few HP of the Stradale... and comparable sound. If you want the exhaust bypass valve, I imagine one of the people installing the Tubi replacement might be willing to sell you their stock parts.

    That essentially just leaves the carbon brakes and wheels... if you are okay with a bit of noise, just going to track pads is probably more economical.


    Believe me, I've been thinking about that a lot since having my CS vanish... I have a Euro 360 now... its a great car... I could do a lot for the price delta... and then Imola comes along claiming 480HP!


    And aesthetics / warranty. Its definitely a reasonable option, given the huge price delta between a 2000 Euro 360 and a new CS!!

    Brian

    P.S. And if you decide to go that route before I do, I've got a great Euro 360 for you! ;)
     
  5. Jordan Ross

    Jordan Ross Formula Junior

    Nov 4, 2003
    591
    Austin
    Id rather have the CS with a warranty, but a modded 360 Modena would be nice, too.
    Id like to see some mods to make it look and sound like the GT racers, like the lemans cars.

    Also, If someone has a 360 spyder then they could make it into a CS Spyder. That would bo very cool, the lightness of a CS with the top-down fun of the Spyder!
     
  6. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    doody, it's always seemed to me that some folks like "factory" and some folks like "custom." Custom of course gives you the freedom to do whatever you want to whatever you want, and that's got a lot of appeal; there's a lot of fun to be had in the process of upgrading. You can dig yourself a deep hole if you end up with mismatched or inappropriate components, of course, but that's just a matter of finding someone who knows what he's doing (or knowing what you're doing on your own). If I wanted to go custom, I'd start with a stock 360 and build on it, as you suggest. I'd think it wouldn't be that hard to get to more hp, for example, and less weight, as compared to the Stradale, simply by spending dollars on hp or weight reduction. I suspect you might get killed on resale, but you've already thought of that. I'm a factory over custom guy, but I have friends who've never met the car they wouldn't modify. I say do what makes you happy.
     
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  8. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
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    Dood -

    I think the big thing to keep in mind is that resale value of aftermarket mods is virtually nil, and if you do it right it won't be cheap. You'll be doing it for your own enjoyment, no one else is going to pay for it (in my experience).

    Gary
     
  9. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    True... but in comparison to the unknown depreciation on the CS... you may still come out WAAYYYY ahead. And if you're going to be a CS owner who modifies his CS anyway... then you might as well not take both depreciation hits.
     
  10. Mako99

    Mako99 Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Dec 29, 2003
    454
    The depreciation must be considered. I'm in this boat as well, I'm not rich enough to not sweat about dropping $200k on a CS, so I've been looking at alternatives. The problem I see with the CS is that it takes a very special kind of buyer to take it off of your hands should you decide you want to get out of it. They'll have to be like us, track nuts, and actually WANT the noise, vibration, lack of amenities, race seats, etc, that we treasure.

    It's hard to predict what type of price range that pre-owned 360CSs will be selling at two years from now, but If the Monza arrives in quantity by then we can guess pretty closely.

    Figure that a 2002 off-warranty base standard 360 F1 with 10k miles on it will be valued at approximately $90k - $100k 24 months from today. Will the CS be valued at a $35k premium above those levels due to its exclusivity and gear? Hard to say but doubtful.

    So in a best case scenario, a 360CS is worth $140k when the Monza drops, which will be faster than any 360 on a track (which then minimizes the demand for the older CS a ton to F-car track nuts) and in the worst case scenario the CS is valued around $110k. That is a $hitload of depreciation for just two years, and it's caused mainly by a superior model arriving soon.

    The same applies for my other choice, the Gallardo, I'm sure it will be selling in the $100k - $120k range by the time the Monza arrives.

    Not sure I can stomach that kind of loss in so short of a time frame, and others should be aware of it as well.
     
  11. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
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    Dec 8, 2003
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    [/QUOTE]P.S. And if you decide to go that route before I do, I've got a great Euro 360 for you! ;)[/QUOTE]

    Brian/List
    Sorry, couldn't find PM (on the new s/w?)
    Tell me more about your Euro 360 please.
    Also, has there been any previous thread re: pros/cons of eurocars vs us?
    PM me on this if you wish.
    Thanks,
    James
     
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  13. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    Notwithstanding all the bruhaha about weight and HP, there are still many many reports about the feel of the CS compared to the regular 360. Alot of this is that the CS is in the "keeper" category. I plan to keep mine and augment the stable later. Look at the F40, very specialist, totally not a day to day car, 1300+ made and they still command 300+K.

    I'm not suggesting the CS has the cachet of the F40 (yet) but if us waiting (and those that have them now) owners keep them that will keep the number on the market down to a minimum. Right now we're in the stag period with the usual sharks trying to make a fast buck - or 20000 :)

    I don't personally really mind what the money situation is (fortunate for me), and I'm delighted that I'm getting one.

    I plan to be terrorizing the maz no. of FCA events this summer with the mean-stripe machine!
     
  14. JH

    JH F1 Veteran

    Nov 14, 2002
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    Exactly, when the Monza comes, they will drop heavily I think. So I too would think twice about it.
     
  15. Mako99

    Mako99 Formula Junior
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    Dec 29, 2003
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    But I want it now! lol
     
  16. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    As far as the resale is concerned, I do not think it is an issue if you take the time to remove all stock items carefully and store them until you are ready to sell. My shop has modified many high end cars and the best method is to always save the stock items and put them back on before the sale of the car. The only time this becomes an issue is when you get into internal engine modifications, but at that point, you are not very concerned about resale. I think a heavily modified 360 would be a blast to work on and drive, but as mentioned earlier in this post, it depends on the person. Some welcome the security of the warranty while others could care less. Either way Doody, I am sure you will enjoy the vehicle.
     
  17. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    Or consider the 512M... which had a similar price tag to the CS... and look where its price is today... almost a decade later. Its definitely a crap shoot... but like you, Dan, I plan to keep mine forever. And like you, Dan...

    I plan to put the max number of events on it I can manage... I want to reach the mileage limits of my warranty before the time limit... not likely, but that's a goal... I want to have the highest mileage CS on the planet... including the most track miles... and I am already way behind! ;)

    So, resell values is furthest from my mind in this. But I realize that I may not be the norm in that!! ;)
     
  18. 720

    720 F1 Rookie

    Jul 14, 2003
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    i plan to drive my stradale every day just for the fun of it. i might even do a few track days from time to time to see if i can still keep a car mostly out of the gravel.

    i'll probably put about 10000 miles a year on my stradale and depreciation and resale value are the last things i care about. sure, it's always nice if others put a high value on things i own, but that's not the reason i am buying a stradale. it's for pure enjoyment. if i don't spend my money on things i enjoy (such as ferraris) i know my heirs will :)
     
  19. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    doody, we are thinking alike here as i just replied to another post that i liked a modded 360 that everyone else was trashing. i think the cs is hype vs std 360 and i'd go with the aftermarket.
     
  20. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    Except the one in that other thread is all show... to the detriment of the car's performance... I guarantee that thing will be SLOWER on a track than a normal 360... and be impractical for street use.

    I think Doody's looking to make weight-saving, performance-enhancing mods to the 360.

    The hard question here is to what degree Ferrari's changes were real and of-value. Did they actually get some significant weight reduction in the unsprung weight? Did they accomplish amazing improvements in driver feel? Or was it just great tires and lots of BS?

    Unfortunately, to date its apparent that there is at least some BS... which certainly makes all of it suspect.
     
  21. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    yes the one in the other post is show only but aftermarket can also produce one for go. forza has a 360 done up by imola in germany that is my favorite f car.
     
  22. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    doody: this all depends on how many events you'd do/year, and what you're ultimate goals are (i.e., do you ever want to club race?) if you do want to race, or want to run in some sanctioned events, the 360 will need to be near 360C spec, and that makes no sense to do, b/c a 360C is much cheaper from the word go.
    in converting the 360, that's a more fiscally responsible out than buying a CS since you'll spend less in getting the car "track worthy" than the 200k msrp of the CS (add ceremonious mark-up for garnish as neccessary). not to mention, to really get serious with the 360, you'll make it unsellable (at least to the avg owner/collector base) so you've got to be okay with buying, esentially, a 100k lawn ornament. are you? (and even if you do sell it, you'll take a huge hit).
    the reasons why you wouldn't want to do this over a 993 car are simple: consumables and maintenance. the money required to get the 360 may not be out of reach, but the consumables will kill you, as will the maintenance. (track cars need rotors/pads/oil changes/sometimes body panels etc etc etc)
    lastly, you can buy a complete 993 sorted, with all the goodies (jrz, cage, spares, etc etc etc)for under 60k. that's a bargain, and it'll be faster than most prepped 360's (i.e., bill walzcak is selling his track/race car w/ fresh 3.8 motor, new paint, etc for 56k. that's a steal.)
    at any rate, the major problem with taking a street car, and modifying it, is that it's takes money to do it right the first time, and a lot more money, to fix it the second time around. in the end, unless you've got a serious surplus, or oyu just have to run an f car, then the pcar will cost you a lot less, and will allow you to arrive at a higher level of preperation for much less money. there seems to be an instant 500% mark-up once you mutter ".. oh, it's for a ferrari.."; as in, the clerk on the other end usually ends up with $ signs in his eyes.
     
  23. Victory

    Victory Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    410
    Doody, it looks like you're the type that will modify any car anyway. So why not use a cheaper base. There are so many off the shelf mods that can be had for the 360 now and you'd have a "personalised" car that you can be proud of.

    For me I don't like to modify my Ferrari, any Ferrari, so I'll stick to my CS.
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    A well modified car car be a blast to drive, but difficult to build and sort out. The more power you try to get, the harder it is to build. But, with boost, 150 hp/liter is pretty straight forward these days, so a 360 should make 540 hp without batting an eye. 200 hp/liter is about the limit and still run pump gas, 720 or so. Your looking at $20k-$30k in the engine then any suspension work you want to do to match the CS. For the street, I personally prefer positive displacement supercharges because there is no lag and nearly fully boost right from idle. For the track turbos are the weapon of choice sinc ethey are a little lighter and you'll never be the bottom 1/2 of the tach anyway.
     
  25. Doody

    Doody F1 Veteran

    Nov 16, 2001
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    really neat feedback guys - thanks!

    i agree with the asseesment that buying a sorted out 993 is probably way fiscally smarter than any sort of 360 (euro or otherwise). the kids aren't starving to death or anything, but i'm not made of money either :).

    i do not intend to compete. just track events and the like, but not racing. as a result, i'd prefer not to go the pure-track-car route.

    all good stuff to chew on. thanks!

    doody.
     
  26. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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  27. 550syd

    550syd Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    76
    Australia
    Why not buy a 360 Challenge? You've got a nice 550 to drive on the road - you'll have a lot more fun on the track with the 360C. Last weekend in Melbourne the F club had a track day and there were 3x360C there, 1xCS, 1xF355C and then the rest were road cars. The boys with the track cars had a ball. They're coming up pretty cheap, all sorted, and you can run slicks...
     
  28. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    The 355C are road cars too, and there were two of them.
     

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