360 ECU´s with 448HP and 9200RPM

Moving away from Heikos products I'd like to know what kind of effect do ECU upgrades have on long term reliability - on any car?
If there is scope to up power on the standard car to such an extent why do manufacturers leave it "in reserve" so to speak...

 

I wouldn't worry about any top end issues for 360. The Challenge fleet I maintain have all been abused as far as F1 system allows and are all healthy in that area. I once even found there to be an inner exhaust valve spring MISSING from a foreign previous refresh attempt....with NO consequences!

However, I'd make sure you use the latest spec Challenge LH cambelt tensioner assist unit (thicker casting). Also the new spec variators (free parts if Challenge car), but more important than both of those....be sure to use the new spec oil pump chain tensioner...VERY IMPORTANT.

I'd also get rid of the shell Helix and use Castrol RS 10w60 synthetic, or something similar.

There is also much power to be had from larger diameter exhaust manifold pipework, but systems are rare it seems.....

Dont forget about torque though....I see Heiko ECU's deliver max torque at around 8000rpm.....hardly ideal, but still good torque at 5000rpm I know.

 

I agree with Manu

The reliability issue must be a real concern.

I'm assuming that this modification would invalidate any factory warranty.

So if that's the assumption what sort of warranty does HGParts offer.


Wazza

 

Allan the 329 you are seeing is KW not horse power. You need to add a third to convert KW to HP.

 

Assuming 23% for driveline losses in the 360 appears to be correct. I have seen 360s dyno between 305-315 at the wheels, so taking an average of 310WHP, would yield approximately 402HP with 23% lossed in the drivetrain. So either Ferrari is overrating their engines, or the tranny and related components are chewing up A LOT of HP (considering BMWs typically lose about 15% down the driveshaft).

However, calculating driveline losses is relatively unimportant here. What is important is the gain in WHP, which from this dyno chart appears to be rather significant (and not that surprising since the cats and stock muffler have been replaced in favor of higher flowing units). 251kW to the wheels, is roughly 336WHP, which would imply a gain of 26WHP (if using 310 as a baseline).

As for reliability, I would think most Ferrari owners are not the type who will drive their cars every day, bouncing off the rev-limiter. As ferrarifixer noted, these motors are built solid from the factory...they are meant to be enjoyed (provided they are properly maintained and serviced). Of course, abuse and longevity are inversly related, but as a driver one must understand the fine line between enjoying your car and abusing it.
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RE: Drive Line losses

The 15% number tends to be associated with live axle cars with manual transmissions when the transmission gear is 1:1 and actually no gears are used to transmit the forces--input shaft is dogged to the output shaft. A 20% number is used for similar cars with automatic transmissions with torque converters. This sets the range of basic assumptions.

A car as above but with an independent rear suspension is generally regarded as loosing 16%-17% due to the extra CV/universal joints in the drive line.

Cars with really high power levels (acceleration capability greater than 1 Gs) can read larger drive line losses (by another couple of percent) on a dyno as the tires slip on the rolling wheel.

An F355 transaxle does not have a 1:1 gear, and in addition has a crown gear and a ring gear that the live axel cars have. So instead of a direct coupling transmission (as in a vette, mustang, viper) ther are 3 gears involved over and above those other drive line systems. A number hovering near 20% MIGHT be completely reasonable, or might be a little high (no drive shaft and associated bearing loads).

A number in the 23% range for the driveline loss in a 360 is NOT reasonable, in MY opinion.

 

Well, on my 355, i changed the headers, exhaust, no cats and made larger airboxes with improved flow. Its never been dynoed, but my ass dyno tells me it made an improvement. Not huge, but an improvement.

With Heicos numbers i wasnt factoring the other upgrades, so i guess with the increased redline, his numbers are possible. One thing i cant see is a 23-25% driveline loss.

 

Then how do you account for standard 360s putting down roughly 310-315 to the wheels?

Either Ferrari is overstating the HP figure or the drivetrain is losing 22-23%...it's either one or the other.

 

Where did the 310 - 315 figure come from? One guy, or is it an accepted figure, based on a number of dyno runs? I agree, it sure does seem low for a 400hp car.

 

Does anyone other than Samir have a stock 360 dyno sheet to post? I am curious about the high drivetrain loss, now.

--Dan

 

I just remember talking with Risi Competizione's engineer who said they expect a 360 Challenge engine to last 60 hours of track time... I'm assuming the Challenge tuning pushes the engine in similar ways. I would want more reliability and endurance from my $20k (more??) engine!

Of course, when you own a race team, these things solve themselves ;-).

 

Ryan,

Double that.....a 360 crate motor runs 40K.

Regards,

Jon

 

Well is it me or has everyone missed sight of the higher rpm's. Allan mentioned it but I haven't seen anyone else say anything about it. Now I'm no engine wiz, but from what I can tell, the extra rev's are giving the car the added HP. I was also wondering if the speed limiter got removed?

 

Ernie, I can't see how extra revs will give you more HP if max HP is already at lower rpm than the redline! i'd imagine the cams would need to be changed for that.

 

Interesting thread. I love the way the torque curve has been altered with these modifications. Components will wear at a faster with these mods, but at the rate of a challenge car for infrequent but intense road use? That I don't buy. I'd like to see some dyno runs with some induction modifications to lower the temps solely to see the changes.

Sunny

 

Heiko says that his ecu doesn't recognise the cats.

Simply taking the cats off a car you increase engine power by reducing engine back pressure. But the ecu would still set the air/fuel mix for a stoichiometric mix so as not to kill the cats because as far as the ECU is concerned they are still on the car.

If the new ECU will let the engine run slightly richer (about 10-20% fuel richer) than stoichiometric, this will give some good HP gains...at the expense of fuel consumption and emissions. ie for the same amount of air coming in you can put 10% more fuel in...fuel=power

40-50HP increase on a 360 I can believe that.

See ya
Simon

 

I may be wrong but I wasn't aware of a speed limiter on the 360.

 

I am unaware of any Ferrari with a speed limiter.

Ernesto

 

On the 360's yes there is a speed limiter. According to a Forza article, on a German company called DigiTec, the factory ecu limits the car to 189 mph. DigiTec removed the speed limiter giving the car a new top speed of 196 mph (?), and they also raised the rev limiter to around 9,200 rpm. Yes the hp gets raised as a result of the rpm's being raised. Because the rpm's are increased the range that the engine can produce power also increases. That is why F1 engines, that spin in the neighborhood of 18,000 rpm, can produce the hp figures they get from such small displacement engines.

 

From what I can tell the 360 reaches top speed at redline, not because of an electronic speed limiter.

Ernesto

 

I'm just going on memory. But I do know that what ever it was that they raised, increased the power and the top speed. You can check it out on their website http://www.digi-tec.net however the english version doesn't work, so you will have to look on the german page.

 

Having taken a day to think about how to get power above the original powerband using teh original engine parts: consider: retime the cams for larger valve overlap period which moves the powerband up the RPM scale (and compresses the width (in RPMs) of the powerband (typically).)

This overlap period is critial with respect to header tuning (runner length and collector volume). Removing the cats allows the cat-replacement pipe to act (sort of) like a collector, and with proper sizing (of cat replacement), it might be possible to take advantage of the added exhaust harmonics to extract additional power from the engine--IF the cams have been retimed.

So, do the cams get retimed AS part of this ECU upgrade?

 

it says that car runs into rev limiter @ 8500 - increase to 9200rpm makes it go faster / more hp
- thomas