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360 ECU´s with 448HP and 9200RPM

Discussion in '360/430' started by HGParts, Nov 4, 2003.

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  1. HGParts

    HGParts Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2003
    456
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Heiko from HGParts
    so looks like we have a lot different ways to see it but

    the 360 setup is test pipes and a sport exhaust with bmc airfilters.

    to make it understand the setup of the ecu is non cat. its a total different setup as stock (the ecu´s know no cat). anyway there are only a few left and then they are sold out.

    Heiko
    HGParts
    Sponsor of FerrariChat
    email: hgparts@arcor.de
    Webshop: http://stores.andale.com/hgparts
     
  2. manu

    manu Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2002
    981
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Manu
    Moving away from Heikos products I'd like to know what kind of effect do ECU upgrades have on long term reliability - on any car?
    If there is scope to up power on the standard car to such an extent why do manufacturers leave it "in reserve" so to speak...
     
  3. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    I wouldn't worry about any top end issues for 360. The Challenge fleet I maintain have all been abused as far as F1 system allows and are all healthy in that area. I once even found there to be an inner exhaust valve spring MISSING from a foreign previous refresh attempt....with NO consequences!

    However, I'd make sure you use the latest spec Challenge LH cambelt tensioner assist unit (thicker casting). Also the new spec variators (free parts if Challenge car), but more important than both of those....be sure to use the new spec oil pump chain tensioner...VERY IMPORTANT.

    I'd also get rid of the shell Helix and use Castrol RS 10w60 synthetic, or something similar.

    There is also much power to be had from larger diameter exhaust manifold pipework, but systems are rare it seems.....

    Dont forget about torque though....I see Heiko ECU's deliver max torque at around 8000rpm.....hardly ideal, but still good torque at 5000rpm I know.
     
  4. wazza

    wazza Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2003
    614
    I agree with Manu

    The reliability issue must be a real concern.

    I'm assuming that this modification would invalidate any factory warranty.

    So if that's the assumption what sort of warranty does HGParts offer.


    Wazza
     
  5. rodsky

    rodsky Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2003
    1,601
    Los Angeles
    Allan the 329 you are seeing is KW not horse power. You need to add a third to convert KW to HP.
     
  6. technik

    technik Rookie

    Nov 3, 2003
    7
    #31 technik, Nov 5, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Assuming 23% for driveline losses in the 360 appears to be correct. I have seen 360s dyno between 305-315 at the wheels, so taking an average of 310WHP, would yield approximately 402HP with 23% lossed in the drivetrain. So either Ferrari is overrating their engines, or the tranny and related components are chewing up A LOT of HP (considering BMWs typically lose about 15% down the driveshaft).

    However, calculating driveline losses is relatively unimportant here. What is important is the gain in WHP, which from this dyno chart appears to be rather significant (and not that surprising since the cats and stock muffler have been replaced in favor of higher flowing units). 251kW to the wheels, is roughly 336WHP, which would imply a gain of 26WHP (if using 310 as a baseline).

    As for reliability, I would think most Ferrari owners are not the type who will drive their cars every day, bouncing off the rev-limiter. As ferrarifixer noted, these motors are built solid from the factory...they are meant to be enjoyed (provided they are properly maintained and serviced). Of course, abuse and longevity are inversly related, but as a driver one must understand the fine line between enjoying your car and abusing it.
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  7. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,368
    RE: Drive Line losses

    The 15% number tends to be associated with live axle cars with manual transmissions when the transmission gear is 1:1 and actually no gears are used to transmit the forces--input shaft is dogged to the output shaft. A 20% number is used for similar cars with automatic transmissions with torque converters. This sets the range of basic assumptions.

    A car as above but with an independent rear suspension is generally regarded as loosing 16%-17% due to the extra CV/universal joints in the drive line.

    Cars with really high power levels (acceleration capability greater than 1 Gs) can read larger drive line losses (by another couple of percent) on a dyno as the tires slip on the rolling wheel.

    An F355 transaxle does not have a 1:1 gear, and in addition has a crown gear and a ring gear that the live axel cars have. So instead of a direct coupling transmission (as in a vette, mustang, viper) ther are 3 gears involved over and above those other drive line systems. A number hovering near 20% MIGHT be completely reasonable, or might be a little high (no drive shaft and associated bearing loads).

    A number in the 23% range for the driveline loss in a 360 is NOT reasonable, in MY opinion.
     
  8. HGParts

    HGParts Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2003
    456
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Heiko from HGParts
    again the stock 360 has 400HP that exacly 294KW so 1KW is 1.36HP

    when you look at the sheet the stock car has 305-310hp on the wheels

    the car with ecu´s has 251KWx1.36=341.36HP on the wheels

    but still 329.5KW=448hp at 9239RPM and the stock car only has 294KW=400HP at 8500RPM

    also the test was made at 88Fahrenheit so you see the car has power

    so what do you tell someone when they ask you how much HP the 360 has do you tell the HP on the wheels??????

    the HP everybuddy talks about are the Engine HP so the Stock 360 has 400HP and the Car with ECU`s has 448HP on the DINO and thats 48HP more then stock.

    Heiko
    HGParts
    Sponsor of FerrariChat
    email: hgparts@arcor.de
    Webshop: http://stores.andale.com/hgparts
     
  9. allanlambo

    allanlambo F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2002
    4,363
    Maui
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    Allan
    Well, on my 355, i changed the headers, exhaust, no cats and made larger airboxes with improved flow. Its never been dynoed, but my ass dyno tells me it made an improvement. Not huge, but an improvement.

    With Heicos numbers i wasnt factoring the other upgrades, so i guess with the increased redline, his numbers are possible. One thing i cant see is a 23-25% driveline loss.
     
  10. technik

    technik Rookie

    Nov 3, 2003
    7
    Then how do you account for standard 360s putting down roughly 310-315 to the wheels?

    Either Ferrari is overstating the HP figure or the drivetrain is losing 22-23%...it's either one or the other.
     
  11. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    Where did the 310 - 315 figure come from? One guy, or is it an accepted figure, based on a number of dyno runs? I agree, it sure does seem low for a 400hp car.
     
  12. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    Does anyone other than Samir have a stock 360 dyno sheet to post? I am curious about the high drivetrain loss, now.

    --Dan
     
  13. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Consultant

    Aug 6, 2003
    21,447
    Las Vegas, NV
    Full Name:
    Ryan Alexander
    I just remember talking with Risi Competizione's engineer who said they expect a 360 Challenge engine to last 60 hours of track time... I'm assuming the Challenge tuning pushes the engine in similar ways. I would want more reliability and endurance from my $20k (more??) engine!

    Of course, when you own a race team, these things solve themselves ;-).
     
  14. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
    East Coast
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    Jon K.
    Ryan,

    Double that.....a 360 crate motor runs 40K.

    Regards,

    Jon
     
  15. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Nov 19, 2001
    21,869
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    The Bad Guy
    Well is it me or has everyone missed sight of the higher rpm's. Allan mentioned it but I haven't seen anyone else say anything about it. Now I'm no engine wiz, but from what I can tell, the extra rev's are giving the car the added HP. I was also wondering if the speed limiter got removed?
     
  16. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    78,286
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Ernie, I can't see how extra revs will give you more HP if max HP is already at lower rpm than the redline! i'd imagine the cams would need to be changed for that.
     
  17. JaguarXJ6

    JaguarXJ6 F1 Veteran

    Feb 12, 2003
    5,335
    Denver, CO
    Full Name:
    Sunny
    Interesting thread. I love the way the torque curve has been altered with these modifications. Components will wear at a faster with these mods, but at the rate of a challenge car for infrequent but intense road use? That I don't buy. I'd like to see some dyno runs with some induction modifications to lower the temps solely to see the changes. :)

    Sunny
     
  18. Simon

    Simon Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Aug 29, 2003
    5,842
    Switzerland
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    Simon
    Heiko says that his ecu doesn't recognise the cats.

    Simply taking the cats off a car you increase engine power by reducing engine back pressure. But the ecu would still set the air/fuel mix for a stoichiometric mix so as not to kill the cats because as far as the ECU is concerned they are still on the car.

    If the new ECU will let the engine run slightly richer (about 10-20% fuel richer) than stoichiometric, this will give some good HP gains...at the expense of fuel consumption and emissions. ie for the same amount of air coming in you can put 10% more fuel in...fuel=power

    40-50HP increase on a 360 I can believe that.

    See ya
    Simon
     
  19. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    I may be wrong but I wasn't aware of a speed limiter on the 360.
     
  20. t88power

    t88power Formula 3

    Feb 19, 2001
    2,396
    Puerto Rico
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    Ernesto
    I am unaware of any Ferrari with a speed limiter.

    Ernesto
     
  21. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
    21,869
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    The Bad Guy
    On the 360's yes there is a speed limiter. According to a Forza article, on a German company called DigiTec, the factory ecu limits the car to 189 mph. DigiTec removed the speed limiter giving the car a new top speed of 196 mph (?), and they also raised the rev limiter to around 9,200 rpm. Yes the hp gets raised as a result of the rpm's being raised. Because the rpm's are increased the range that the engine can produce power also increases. That is why F1 engines, that spin in the neighborhood of 18,000 rpm, can produce the hp figures they get from such small displacement engines.
     
  22. t88power

    t88power Formula 3

    Feb 19, 2001
    2,396
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    Ernesto
    From what I can tell the 360 reaches top speed at redline, not because of an electronic speed limiter.

    Ernesto
     
  23. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Nov 19, 2001
    21,869
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    The Bad Guy
    I'm just going on memory. But I do know that what ever it was that they raised, increased the power and the top speed. You can check it out on their website http://www.digi-tec.net however the english version doesn't work, so you will have to look on the german page.
     
  24. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,368
    Having taken a day to think about how to get power above the original powerband using teh original engine parts: consider: retime the cams for larger valve overlap period which moves the powerband up the RPM scale (and compresses the width (in RPMs) of the powerband (typically).)

    This overlap period is critial with respect to header tuning (runner length and collector volume). Removing the cats allows the cat-replacement pipe to act (sort of) like a collector, and with proper sizing (of cat replacement), it might be possible to take advantage of the added exhaust harmonics to extract additional power from the engine--IF the cams have been retimed.

    So, do the cams get retimed AS part of this ECU upgrade?
     
  25. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    it says that car runs into rev limiter @ 8500 - increase to 9200rpm makes it go faster / more hp
    - thomas
     

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