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360 experts I have a weird hazard (electrical) issue help please

Discussion in '360/430' started by LP360, Feb 14, 2021.

  1. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Strange. There is something I'm missing here. You're getting all the right voltage readings on the socket. The jumper should put power directly on the lights. It's really odd that both sides are not responding to these jumpers. If one side wasn't lighting up with the jumper, I would suspect a broken wire, but two wires breaking at the same time.... almost impossible. I think even your indy would have a problem with this. It could get expensive unless he's come across something like this before.

    I'm starting to wonder if there are some shorted diodes in the circuit somewhere. e.g. in the instrument panel. Do F360 instrument panel turn indication arrows normally illuminate individually or do they both light up at the same time for left and right turns?

    As the immobiliser also has the potential to put on the turn lights, there could be a problem inside the immobiliser (even if the immobiliser is not programmed to illuminate the lights). Is it difficult to get to the immobiliser ECU plugs on a F360? I see the ECU is buried behind the fuses and relays behind the left hand seat. All I can suggest is disconnecting the battery and pulling the plugs on the immobiliser (if they are accessible), then reconnect the battery and retry the jumper wires (although I'm not sure if the siren would be triggered).

    Sorry, running out of easy/cheap suggestions ...
     
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  3. Qavion

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    Before you go further, you may want to recheck the voltage reading between 2 & 4 (to make sure the fuse near the battery didn't blow during your jumper tests).
     
  4. Qavion

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    As much as I've tried, I can't find a link between the inertia switch and the Hazard/Turn module. The inertia switch only seems to be attached to the Motronic ECUs (it probably kills the ECUs which, in turn, disable the fuel pump relays)

    Probably not relevant, but with the ignition ON, when you push the Hazard button, does the warning triangle appear on the instrument panel digital display (with the Hazard/Turn module removed)?
     
  5. LP360

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    I've tried another test, I've brought a scuding Swiss relay and getting some interesting results which may help diagnose the issue? So with the relay in I'm getting a clicking noise and the power light keeps flashing on and off with the ignition on, it'd as if its trying to work but probably not getting enough power or something? Again hazards are not working. When I turn the key to ON the hazard symbol does light up as normal along with all the other warning lights before going off.


    Here is a video:





    Sent from my CLT-L09 using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  6. Qavion

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    I guess that's one good sign. Does it remain on with the Hazard Switch pushed? I don't know if it will on a functioning car. Unfortunately, I don't have a functional F360 I can experiment on.

    The video shows the car running, so the alternator should be providing enough volts to the car generally. By the way, how old is your battery? I have a voltmeter which plugs into my cigarette lighter to help diagnose battery/alternator problems. Something like this:

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/264959227913?

    At this point, I don't know if the Scuding relay is another symptom of the problem causing your light issue. There could be a car power problem or the Scuding relay could simply be broken. The Scuding relay uses battery power, but from a terminal "7P" behind the left hand seat. The Hazard system uses the main battery connection (with a fuse inbetween). Of course, all the car's circuits are tied together at the battery. I guess it wouldn't hurt to check the tightness of your battery terminals.
    Also, you could pull your Scuding relay and check for 12 volts between socket 2 (grey wire/"H") and chassis earth (I guess socket 1 or 4 should be at earth potential). Car not running, of course.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Note that the image of the relay socket (above) is the underside of the socket, so you will have to flip the image mentally.
    Also, with the car running and relay inserted, you could check the power at the pump fuse (also behind the left seat).
    I cant' remember if it's the left or right hand fuse...


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    Put the voltmeter black probe on any suitable chassis earth.

    Note that the clicking of your Scuding relay may be caused by other car issues (including a faulty signal from the F1 TCU)
     
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  8. LP360

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    Qavion thank you for all the help in trying to figure out what's wrong with my car, however I've thrown in the towel and it'll be going to the indy next Friday as I'm stuck with what it could be, they'll have a better chance than myself as I'm pretty much useless with electics. Soon as I find out the issue I'll post on here to let you know and also anyone else who has issues with the hazards.


    I can't thank you enough for your time and was hoping for an easy fix however my car decided other wise.

    Cheers.

    Sent from my CLT-L09 using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  9. Qavion

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    Looking forward to it. I would definitely tell your tech what you've tried already. He may want to read this message thread and may come up with a theory on why the jumper didn't work. I just hope there are no problems in your instrument binnacle or with your immobiliser.

    I definitely understand your trepidation.
     
  10. Qavion

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    #33 Qavion, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
    By the way, I started creating a wiring diagram for the F360 hazard/turn system. It probably might make sense to those who are familiar with the WSM wiring hookup diagrams:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/LpGMAoZsJsfvVwCo

    Link expires in 6 days
     
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  11. Qavion

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    This diagram may be a little easier to understand for some folks.... It's in the style of earlier Ferrari wiring diagrams:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/AD06CzWkWFhzowWX

    There are a few unknowns, so I'll post updates when more information comes to hand. Link expires in 6 days.
     
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  13. Qavion

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    An update on the turn indication wiring diagram ... noticed one or two mistakes in the previous diagram... also added lots of wiring and notes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/4G59wLU6gLSpo4mm

    Included wiring for cigarette lighter and other small items.

    Link expires in 6 days.
     
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  14. LP360

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    Reasons why I love forums, Qavion again thank you for all your time and help, I will print this off and hand it in to the indy for a helping hand when taking the car on Friday for diagnosing the issue. Will report back what the issue is/was soon as I know.
     
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  15. hessank

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    +1
    Thanks for sharing Ian
     
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  16. Qavion

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  17. Qavion

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    I see that fuse and relay numbers vary from car to car. As long as you use the notes and graphics provided, you should be ok. As far as I know, the location of a fuse for a particular function shouldn't physically change.
     
  18. hessank

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    PM sent
     
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  19. Qavion

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    Hopefully this is the last version of the Hazard/Turn diagram (version 7)...

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/WXbLITerO7OAxWvm

    I've added some wires related to the luggage compartment lid open warning light

    Also, here's my first version of a headlight and sidelight wiring diagram

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/L2tXYNDa9tc49M7N

    Probably not my last version :p I keep finding errors in the Ferrari manuals (and a few errors of my own) and I have yet to add the tail light wiring. Thanks to Fred @ hessank for clarifying a few issues.

    Enjoy! (if you're into this kind of thing)
     
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  20. LP360

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    Thanks for updating Qavion, I shall print this off in the next day or 2 and hand it in to my indy Friday. :)
     
  21. Qavion

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    It will probably be best to wait til' the last moment before printing. I'm sure to find some minor variations. I noticed some non-standard pin numbering on some connectors. On some connectors the numbers are in a U shape pattern (like cylinder numbers). Anyway, you can always f0llow the wire colouring.

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/E1xys7l4cHUY8crJ

    Anyway, sorry we couldn't come up with an easy solution. Sometimes faults aren't always evident with a multimeter. You have to load up circuits to get them to break. Sometimes test probes with lamps inside them are better for faultfinding. Anyway, that jumper wire should have worked.
     
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  22. hessank

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    Check your email.
    Manual sent
     
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  23. Qavion

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    Just noticed a faulty graphic for the standard relay socket in my diagrams (there were two pin "3"s). Now corrected (highlighted in light blue):

    Hazard/Turn:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/Zux0acY7cIGpA4xY

    I've also added detail for ignition switches (although I'm not sure of the wiring of the internal white wire)

    Headlights/Sidelights:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/bHUroRPHXrBd3etK

    Off topic, but here's a diagram for the window wipers/washers I've updated.

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/L8eD1D6DHHPh5R2I

    I just discovered that there are two types of Wiper Module (this is a diagram for the earlier version).
     
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  24. Qavion

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    #46 Qavion, Mar 4, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
    I don't know if this is relevant or just a curiosity, but I've just noticed that the Workshop Manual labels the function of pin 3 on instrument panel connector "8E" as "Emergency control after crash" and says it's an output signal. I may need to do some minor adjustments to my diagram. Here's a section of the current diagram.

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    I thought that the Hazard pushbutton would use pin 3 as in input to illuminate the triangle symbol on the instrument display. Does the red triangle symbol illuminate on the instrument display when you push the Hazard button on a F360 or only in an accident?

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    On cars such as the 550 Maranello, there is an inertia switch which illuminates the hazard flashers if the car crashes. The F360 has an inertia switch, but it doesn't seem to have an input into the Instrument panel. I thought the Hazard triangle may be triggered by the Airbag ECU* (that has in input into the Instrument Panel). I may need to add a diode in the instrument panel circuit to make the circuit work (as it is done on the 550 with an external diode).

    * wiring diagram for Airbag here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/69jnxc3m2vF5GlaX
     
  25. Qavion

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    8th time lucky?

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/3EXkInMGGUy0doDI

    I keep finding errors in Ferrari's diagrams, but finding workarounds.
     
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  26. LP360

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    Thanks for the updates I've printed this off Qavion and will hand in tomorrow when the car is at the indy. Probably won't hear anything till late next week as I'm leaving the car with them but soon as I hear anything i'll update.


    Cheers.
     
  27. Sj_engr

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    Electrical gremlins are usually a bad ground. Could also be a marginal wire that got pinched thus you are getting the voltage reading but then cannot carry any amps.
     
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  28. Qavion

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    This problem is rather unusual, however. The way the lights are wired, they have independent circuits/grounds (except the ground on the Hazard/Turn Module). The jumper wires should have bypassed this ground.

    The turn and hazard circuits appear to use independent power sources. The only thing I’m not sure of is if the Hazard/Turn module needs both battery and key power for L/R turn. I think I would try a stress test on the battery (red) wire going to the module first.
     

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