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Discussion in '360/430' started by f355, Nov 7, 2003.
I would like to get the board's opinion on which I should get for a 360 Spyder?
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F1 without a doubt.
Well, that's an intensely personal decision. Ultimately only you can decide. I ordered a 360 Modena a few months ago and arranged to drive both the F1 and manual, fully expecting to order the F1. After driving both I went with the manual, felt a bit let down with the F1 experience. Maybe it just takes longer to get used to it. Part throttle shifts seemed slow and awkward, and I just felt like there was a lot to go wrong mechanically. For me, the sheer driver involvement factor swayed the decision to the manual. I went in thinking the F1 would be huge plus for resale, but I'm not even sure of that anymore...the F1 premium seems to be weakening.
I'm also trying to make up my mind on the F1 vs manual. What about the scary stories on this board about F1 trannys wearing the clutches out when backing up out of a driveway, or when in too high a gear for the RPM (lugging?)?
I've also read that some people have sold the F1s and went back to manuals. Of course, the opposite is also very prevalent.
Thanks. I am torn as well even though I have not driven the F1. Is the F1 as fun as it seems?
You simply must try it for yourself...I was disappointed.
i have owned three 360 F1's and they are teriffic. it's a personal choice because some people like to shift gears themselves and they like to try to master some of the skills necessary to really drive manual gearboxes properly. the F1 gearbox eliminates the need to master some of these skills. but that's fine with me. i'd rather have a blast pushing the car hard and concentrating on other driving skills (and simply having fun) and let the F1 gearbox and all the software take care of the shifts. also, manual gearboxes are old technology. ferrari may even eventually phase them out entirely in favor of F1 (or newer) gearbox technology. stradales and the enzos cannot even be ordered with manual gearboxes. F1 only. this tells you where ferrari is heading doesn't it?
bottom line is you can't go wrong either way. but if you want to master manual shifting then buy some other car (corvette, viper, etc.) and master it there. for the ferrari go with the F1. personally, i feel that the F1 is 1000 times more fun than a manual. i put 10,000 miles on my 2000 360F1 and had absolutely zero problems. i have 6,000 miles on each of my 2002 360 F1s and have had absolutely zero problems.
I have a 2000 360 Modena F1. I have had NO problems with the shifting or anything. Works like clockwork. And if you are not a Schummacher or Andretti, chances are that you won't be able to shift gears manually faster than the F1 transmission.
i say get the manual shifter..the clickity click shift noise is unmistakenly ferrari
I feel your dilemma. I have been trying to decide this one for myself for well over 6 months, and from one day to the next I have changed my mind so many times I have lost count. To throw another detail in for discussion; the F1 in my case is attached to a Stradale and the manual is attached to a Spider. So, I also have a serious decision to make...and have made over and over again. Let me list my thoughts:
*For a road car in Seattle traffic
*Not much track time, once or twice a year
*Open top driving through the N.Cascade loop
*Less complex, no worries about sensor or logic errors that could abruptly end the days fun
*More involvement in driving
*More satisfaction in driving, I have a hard time believing anyone who says they would enjoy heavy on the brakes; flick of the wrist - twice; pitch the car to the left; clip the apex; heavy on the gas; heavy on the brakes; flick of the wrist; pitch the car to the right; clip the apex; heavy on the gas; flick of the wrist.
As apposed to: while heavy on the brakes; jab the throttle; cross gate into 4th; jab the throttle; up gate into 3rd; left foot dancing with the clutch all the while; pitch the car to the left; clip the apex; heavy on the gas; while heavy on the brakes; jab the throttle; cross gate into 2nd; pitch the car to the right; clip the apex; heavy on the gas; cross gate into 3rd...
*No one timing my driving, but me
*More efficient - less driver fatigue
*Not comfortable shifting manually in the first place
*Can concentrate on entry, cornering and exit speed as apposed to shifting
*Feel like Mike
*No manual in Stradale
The list is shorter in the F1 category in IMO the manual is the only way to go in the Spider...and F1 is the only way to go in the Modena/Stradale. I know you can get the manual in the Modena, but if you have a roof, you are more serious about going faster and less serious about touring, which would be better in a Spider. But, i guess you could use the same "involvement" argument in that case.
720 has good points, but speaking for myself, after driving a vette and a viper around for quite a few years and getting fairly competent at shifting, I feel my skills at shifting would extend into a manual Ferrari and may lead to disappointed in an F1 transmission.
(off topic - 720, why two identical cars?)
(off topic - 720, why two identical cars?)
A measure of how kick ass these cars are?
I initially thought I wanted a 6 speed. Then I drove an F1, and there are two things about the F1: 1. It makes it easier to concentrate on corning if you're into going faster, and 2. When you're tired, you can set it on automatic.
I think I'm ending up with an F1
I had an 01 360 F1, but my 04 spider will be a gear shift car. I loved the F1 but for me at least diving the F1 in traffic (which I often run into) was not alot of fun. I do though have a Maserati coupe in F1 so still get a thrill from the downshifts.
I say this much though it is tough to make a choice based on a ten minute test drive, if you have never driven an F1 it takes alittle getting used to. I would say it really depends upon you and what you will enjoy most, either way in my opinion you can not lose.
This issue has been beaten to death in the past, but i'm not sure how easy it is for you to search the archive without having been registered there. AS a overview, there seem to be strong camps supporting both, i think there are some real reliability questions that have been raised about the F1 and apart from that, there may be no "right" answer. I had one on a 355 and found it completely uninvolving after the novelty wore off for street driving, although i could see its value for the track. And, as an aesthetic matter, the center console looks "Bobbitted" with that tiny reverse latch in place of a manly stick. The real problem is that a short test drive will not tell you everything, and as you live with it, your opinions may change. Let us know what you do.
Thanks so much....I think a stick is what I will go with. I have a stick now and love it. I was concerned about the overall trend of Ferrari using exclusively the F1 in the future.
I believe the F1 shifter and the manual shifter on the 360 are both connected to a 6 speed transmission.
you make good points. there really is no right or wrong answer. but seriously you'll be amazed at how fun it is to drive the F1. even around town it's fun. for instance, when you come screaming up to a red light with a head of steam and then at the last second jump on the brakes hard and tug the down paddle a couple times real quick and listen to the F1 blip the throttle perfectly. it's fun.
as for two identical 360s all i can say is that i couldn't make up my mind between red or yellow. i went round and round for months. tossing and turning. basically driving my wife nuts. so she finally told me to just buy both a red one and a yellow one. voila. problem solved btw, i just traded my yellow one to the dealer and they ordered a yellow stradale for me! expected to be delivered in mid-february. i can't wait!
Frank is correct. The box is the same. An F1 has an automatic clutch and software that enables it to shift itself. To me the issue is completely which one do you like in a particular car. In the Enzo I like F1. In the P4 I like fully manual. I think both work in a 360 but an F1 IMHO wouldn't in a 427 Cobra. I think it's interesting to note that P isn't using one in the Carrera GT as they don't feel there's a street unit that works well enough. The problem is with a full manual you can mechanically over rev by selecting the wrong gear destroying your engine; (as a mag writer recently did in the Carrera GT) with the F1 you can't.
Traffic driving in the F1 wasn't a problem for me. On delivery day, I had to drive it home in an especially bad Seattle rush hour traffic. The car did just fine.
The F1 loves the rural backroads I drive.
6 speed all the way kiddos. I'm still not a fan of electronic assisted shifting. The more electonic system in the car, the more that can go wrong. If all manuals trannys wind up like an E shift system, 50 years from now only a talented few will know how drive a car using a manual transmission. That's a scary future if you ask me.
I can't speak from personal experience because every Ferrari that I have ever driven has been a gated shifter. Indeed, one of the most satisfying points about driving the Maranello is rowing that monster transmission.
However, during the bull sessions in New Orleans (of which there were many), the 355/360 hot shoes were all F1 drivers. Everyone of them said that the F1 was the E-Ticket on the track (which makes sense seeing how the F1 came from the race cars). Driving a F1 car through a series of chicanes is like playing a video game. That is, you don't lift completely -- you just left/right, left/right, left/right -- whap, whap, whap, whammmmm. Indeed, on the race fan section there is a discussion of how Schumi never lifts. You just power through the turns.
So I'm guessing that the closest that most of us will ever get to a F1 racer is a mid-engined - F1- 360. From the sound of it, I don't think that even the above average drivers on this board can shift as fast as a F1 paddle. When I was sitting at the hairpin at the Montreal GP earlier this year, it was amazing to hear these guys pull three and four downshifts faster than you can say it -- whap, whap, whap, whap (along will small puffs of tire smoke) and then crank it on, zing, zing, zing, zing out of sight. All this happening in the space of maybe 6 seconds?
So for a new 360, it looks like a F1 is the way to go to capture the complete experience of this car. However, I'd be concerned about buying a used 360 with the F1. Apparently, a paddle shifter is like the little girl and her porridge. When it works, it works great. When it doesn't, it is horrid.
Of course, if you buy a used 360 6 speed, you have to worry about the clutch going out if the previous owner had a heavy foot. But, I'm guessing that a clutch is cheaper than a F1. I'd be interested to hear what kind of problems owners of used 355/360 have experienced. Put another way, ten years from now, would you buy a 2003 360/F1 or would you go for a 360/6 speed?
these are my thoughts but i know there are lots of other opinions out there take a look around. what do you see everywhere? technology. electronics. power assisted this and automatic that. things evolve. cars evolve (ABS brakes, traction control, etc.). a manual gearbox is fun, but why not remember it fondly and move on with the times? eventually you can bet that ferrari will stop offering manual gearboxes entirely in favor of F1 (or newer technology) gearboxes. it's inevitable. otherwise we'd still be driving cars with crank starters, drum brakes and solid rubber tires (can you imagine the discussions that must have gone on when air tube tires started to replace solid rubber tires...those dang fangled air tube tires are too prone to going flat, etc. we must stick with solid rubber!).
i'm not an expert on technology at all, but as i look around i see it everywhere. look at commercial airliners for example. i bet they are all electronic and "drive by wire" nowadays. the pilot controls all the flight surfaces with electronics and computers...no direct mechanical links at all. i read that BMW is working on a steering system that is "drive by wire". eventually there will be no mechanical link at all from the steering wheel to the steering rack. this makes people nervous (me too). but it will be based on the same technology that commercial airliners use to control all the flight surfaces. this technology has proven to be very reliable in commercial aircraft so why not automobiles? you can't fight progress. there's nothing to be gained by resisting progress. embrace it and take advantage of all the benefits it provides.
Of the Ferrari's that I have "personally" sold in my job, those that I know of have that have sold in my marketplace (Canada), those customers of mine, and others, that have sold theirs privately, and the issues with trying to resell a Ferrari, and the opinions of the brokers that I know who sell this stuff as well, I'd have to say BUY THE 6 SPEED MANUAL.
I think this is an interesting topic, but its down to what the individual wants from the drive.
We all differ in our preferances (otherwise life would be boring) I went for manual as it gives you the driving experience, but i must admit the F1 box was a lot of fun.
In the end the CLUTCH story swayed my choice.
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