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360 F1 Pump problems and solutions

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by lmpdesigner, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    Nov 5, 2003
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    Brian Willis
    Hey there to everyone with a 360 that has had trouble with their F1 pump failing and those that will have a problem--which is everyone!

    For those of us with a 360 F1 sooner or later you will run into a failure of the electrical motor that drives the hydraulic pump for the paddle shift. The motor "overheats", usually at around 20k to 25k miles, but can happen sooner or later.

    As usual, the replacement part from Ferrari is way overpriced and actually doesn't fix the real problem.

    So, having my pump go bad, I decided to investigate why they fail and what can be done about it, and here is what I have found. (And I may not have the whole answer or all of the answers!)

    1.) The pump is a 12 volt dc motor from Hitachi that looks to be either a blower motor or a windshield wiper motor.

    2.) The hydraulic pump assembly is a standard "gearpump" assembly that is very reliable and bulletproof.

    3.) The pump assembly bolts to the DC motor via 2 bolts and is a completely separate part. (This is important for reasons below!)

    4.) The pump is actuated via the perssure switch in the hydraulic accumulator (and door-but that is not really important.)

    5.) The pump receives power via a 30 amp relay behind the passenger seat.

    Now it is the 30 amp relay that is the real culprit. Evidently, the relay can overheat (due to the motor drawing over 30 amps at times) and when it does the contacts inside the relay warp and or weld together. The result is that the relay is constantly "on", even when the pressure switch in the accumulator is telling it to stop.

    Because the motor is running and trying to pump the hydro fluid to about 50 bar, but as the accumulator is already fully pressurized the electrical motor stalls, causing it to overheat and short out. So, because there is a $40.00 relay that has failed, you wind up with a burnt out motor. So you go to Ferrari to get a new one a find out they cost about $2000.00!!, or you go to Rutlands, etc. and get a cost of $1650.00!! A lot of money for this bit!!

    Now, on the 360 CS the relay has been replaced with a 50 amp unit (Wonder why?) but you cannot simply replace your 30 amp relay with the 50 amp unit because the insertion lugs are different and will not fit a 360 socket!

    So even if you buy a new pump/motor assembly, you will wind up burning out that unit eventually. Incidently, the dealer replaces the relay whenever they do a pump change--just to be safe! But you still have not fixed anything!!!

    So what to do?

    I suggest the following:

    1.) If your motor goes bad, remove it yourself (30 minutes job-piece of cake to get at.) or have your mechanic remove it, and bring it to a local electrical repair house and have them rebuild it for you--it should be about $100.00 and will be as good as new, if repairable. (And it may not be!)

    2.) Replace the relay-I would do this no matter what, if your car has over 10k on it. The cost is nothing and may extend pump life.

    So, what else can you do. Not much as things stand-but I am working on a proper solution, as follows:

    1.) A jumper plug or cable that will connect the 50 amp CS relay onto the 360 socket. This will allow you to run with the more powerful relay, which should solve most of the overheating problems.

    2.) I am also working on a replacement DC motor that would use the existing pump assembly. This means your fluid connections and pump performance is as factory. I would replace the "factory" DC motor with a more high performance motor, one designed to run 100% duty cycle and survive. The issue is that the size and mounting will be different, and I will need to machine up an adapor plate to connect the pump to "my" motor.

    3.) I am also looking at incoporporating a torque limiting clutch into the design, so that, if the motor stalls, the clutch will allow the motor to freewheel until the stall goes away. This would be a good safeguard on the system.

    4.) I am also looking at adding an alarm (warning light) that you could put somewhere on the dash, telling you if the pump is running or running over a certain length of time, etc.

    5.) I am going forward with 1 and 2 above, maybe 3 and 4 and need feedback from the F-Chat community, namely:

    1.) Would anybody be interested in this kit? I have no prices but would imagine that a motor, adaptor plate, mount bracket to attach to car should be a lot less than the $1640.00 that we must now pay, maybe half or less, and a better product to boot! If I could get a small production run, then the prices would drop-so the more the better.

    So anyhow-if ayone has had F1 pump issues, or wnats more info or wants to add thier advice or comments-please let me know what you are thinkin!
     
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  3. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    May 21, 2005
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    Nice investigation.
     
  4. docster

    docster Karting
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    Apr 14, 2004
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    Nice problem-solving, and approaches to correcting the source & resulting problems. I have an '03 F1 Modena which currently has 18K miles on it, and plan on keeping & driving it well into the mileage range likely to result in these problems. Therefore, I'd be particularly interested in a prophylactic solution to the initial relay failure -- i.e., a "kit" to allow fitting a 50-amp relay in place of the 30-amp one. Keep me/us posted...

    dn
     
  5. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    Nov 5, 2003
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    Brian Willis
    I take it that the lack of response form 360 owners means they have no interest in any of this?
     
  6. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Dec 9, 2003
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    How about an even simpler answer, though not perfect:

    Put a 50 amp circut breaker in line with the motor, somewhere easy to get at. Cost, 5$. If the pump is stalled, the amps will likely spike well above 50 amps, and voila - you save the motor.

    Of course now you are driving the car with no gearbox. But it saves a big repair bill... So now, replace the 30 amp relay...
     
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  8. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2001
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    I like this solution better.
     
  9. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2001
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    Interesting. I had to get new F1 pump about 1.5 years ago when the relay malfunctioned. Pump cost was $900 from the Ferrari dealer.
     
  10. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    Nov 5, 2003
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    I like the breaker solution, but you will still need to replace the 30 amp unit with a 50 amp unit. Why?

    Look at it this way-

    1.) 30 amp relay overheats and welds shut.

    2.) Pump goes into "constant on" stalls and then 50 amp breaker kicks in.

    3.) Car has no drive-but no big deal-you open trunk and reset 50 amp breaker.

    4.) But... 30 amp relay still welded shut so pump goes to "constant on" and stalls and then 50 amp breaker kicks in.

    5.) Car has no drive-but no big deal-you open trunk................

    You need a relay because the system is a "switched" sytem, you need a relay or controller device somewhere. The breaker is a failsafe idea, but the incorporation of a torque overrun clutch is still the best idea. If the motor stalls the clutch allows slip-preventing pump motor failure-then as the accumulator pressure drops, the clutch locks up and you get the pump working again and rebuilding pressure. This way you never loose "shift" ability and reduce motor burnout to nothing. (But you still will need to replace bad relay--It is the relay that is the root problem and needs to be improved.)
     
  11. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    I concur that you still have to replace the relay, and you may have to do it every 25,000 miles. Is that so bad?

    Couldn't one just find a more heavy duty 30 amp relay? Maybe add a heat sink to it?
     
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  13. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    The "duty" of the amp is controlled by the demand placed on it. In this case it is more than 30 amps. You need a 40,50,60 amp relay to match demand. There is no such thing as a heavy duty 30 amp relay-then it would be a 40+ amp relay.

    Adding a heat sink would help but the relay is enclosed in a plastic "box" (yes-removable) and adding a heat sink is not practical. I thought of putting a small 12 volt fan by it but it is not really solving the problem.

    And yea you can and should replace the relay fairly often but again you are not solving the problem. You never know when it fails, and when it does it ruins the F1 pump-which strands you and costs you big bucks to fix. So simply carrying one with you and putting it in when the old one goes bad is "too late".
     
  14. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Brian, thanks for the reply... You have put a lot of thought into this, and applaud that. My questions are mostlt geared towards my own education here...

    But why not just replace the relay with a 50 amp one, and then increase the gauge of the wires to the motor? Wouldn't this also solve the issue?
     
  15. RossoCorsaItaly

    RossoCorsaItaly F1 Rookie
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    F355 owners may be more interested, their pump costs $15,000+
     
  16. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    The 50 amp relay will not fit into the 30 amp socket on the 360. So an adapter "device" is needed, which I am looking at making.

    As for the motor, I want an alternate source than Ferrari. If Ferrari wants $1500-$2000 for the motor-well that is free market-they can charge what they want, but I will not pay such prices if I can help it especially as the part is only worth $100-$200 dollars. So I want to create that other option, and then offer it to other owners. That is also free market.
     
  17. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2001
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    I'm glad Brian's starting work on this. Thanks for putting time into this project!
     
  18. duskybird

    duskybird F1 World Champ
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    Did anything ever come of this?
    I, for one am very interested in this.
     
  19. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
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    It would be nice if the adapter is made. But it is not a huge deal to just make replacing the 30amp relay in the 355/360 as part of your normal maintenance. Just figure it needs to be replaced every 3 years (major service) or 15k miles, which ever comes first.
     
  20. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,035
    Malibu, CA
    Hi- I own a 2003 360 Modena and I have 34K miles so I am very interested in what you have posted. BTW very nice research on your part! Are you a mechanic?
    I looked at my owners manual and the F1 system relay you described being located behind the passenger seat in my car is made by Siemens: part V23134-B57-X203.
    I wondered if this is the same one that is in your car? I know that Ferrari made alot of upgrades to the car over time trying to fix design flaws.

    I also saw in my manual that there are two F1 pump fuses behing the drivers seat. Why don't these fuses prevent the problems you described from happening?
     
  21. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    First, the pump for a 360 is currently nowhere near $1400. This is an old thread, so perhaps it's just dated info. It's closer to $1k.

    Still a whole lot of coin, but here it is:
    http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=261690

    Maybe I'm just desensitized to the whole game, but that really doesn't seem so outrageous. (yikes)

    The F1 relay is about $45. We sell a whole bunch of them, so I suspect people are replacing them as a preventative measure, rather than because of a failure. Including them in a service kit is a good idea... I need to noodle that one around a bit.
     
  22. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    I would think because the relay sticking in the "on" position is running the pump motor until it overheats and fails. The fuse is to interupt a short in the electrical circuit (the relay stuck "on" is not a short). The fuse might trip as the motor fails, but it is too late at that point, the damage is done. (reread post #1)
     
  23. dclimo

    dclimo Rookie

    Feb 17, 2007
    44
    F1 problem , red f1 light on dash and car wont start , cant hear the pump kicking in. This is a random fault sometimes does it, sounds like relay or pump . question where is the pump located , any tips before I start stiping this week
    thanks Dan
     
  24. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Fill up your F1 hydraulic fluid. Replace the F1 relays and fuses. Retry and listen for the pump. Gotta get into Neutral before she'll start, right?!
     
  25. VR4

    VR4 Karting

    Apr 22, 2004
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    my first check would be the relay. is it completing the circuit as designed? is it even being commanded on? what does the owners manual say about the light? (my guess...fault in system and have serviced by authorized service facility)

    also check the F1 fluid level. ill assume theres a failsafe shutting the system down when its low.


    regarding the relay issue in the thread...what about wiring in a second relay in parallel to allow higher current capacity? doing this or using the CS relay will require wiring work. very simple. now my way would be with 2 ford 30 amp $3.00 relays. they work, are very reliable, and are significantly cheaper.


    can someone post a pic of this F1 relay? both the relay and the terminals.
     
  26. dclimo

    dclimo Rookie

    Feb 17, 2007
    44
    Hi. Oil Level ok , what is the full proces for the pump to charge , is it triggered when the drivers door is opened. thanks
     
  27. No Doubt

    No Doubt Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Yup. Does your dome light come on when you open your driver-side door?
     
  28. dclimo

    dclimo Rookie

    Feb 17, 2007
    44
    dome light comes on ,removed cover behind drivers seat there is 3 boards of relays and fuses the diagram shows the 2 relays for the f1 separate but can't see them ,are they located next to the three blocks holding the relays and fuses. Thanks
     

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