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360 F1 techniques

Discussion in '360/430' started by Gary(SF), Jan 6, 2004.

  1. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    Saw this on Rennlist today:

    >>Update on transmission problems with the F1 - apparently owners do not read their manual. When moving at low speeds (parking for example) select first gear on the paddle and then call for another downshift. The display flashes and the clutch engages without slipping to allow for slow speed manouvers like backing into a parking spot. Failure to do this is probably why some owners had premature clutch problems on their 360s. I assume the Stradale is the same.<<

    Any comments? Is this the straight skinny? (Asked by one who will be taking delivery on an F1 360 sometime this year)

    Gary
     
  2. Hubert888

    Hubert888 F1 Veteran
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    May 14, 2003
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    Hubert
    are u saying that when u park for example, put the car in 1st gear, then downshift again?
     
  3. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    Well, I'm not saying it, because this was copied from a post on Rennlist, but I think that is what the author is saying. I just wondered, not having access to a 360 owner's manual, if he was right.

    Gary
     
  4. shelbee

    shelbee Guest

    I don't get it, downshift from 1st will put the car to N and not moving??
     
  5. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    Nothing of the sort in the US manual - the only mention is made of using second gear for greater control at low speeds.

    Might be some Euro function that is not in the US cars/manuals?
     
  6. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    - a flashing display indicates that a gear could not be engaged and the gearbox has gone into neutral

    - how do you want to maneuver without slipping the clutch even in a manual gearbox - think about that - impossible

    - on top of that; in reverse the F1 clutch never fully engages, i.e. it always slips!

    my take: premature clutch wear problems (not caused by HW problems) are caused by accelerator modulation during shifts, i.e. trying to operate the F1 as a manual transmission - getting off the accelerator tells the gearbox to perform a slow shift (slip) - lots of slip creates heat and at some point the clutch control can not adapt its engagement point anymore - at that point excessive slip will create lots of clutch wear especially most common at low speed (stop & go)

    the only fault of the F1 I can see is that it depends on a funky clutch temperature calculation algorithm instead of employing physical measurement through a sensor (hard to implement I admit) – I believe that’s the point at which it can go wrong if one ignors excessive slip
     
  7. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    I have a Euro... there is no such nonsense in the Euro manual either. Downshifting in first has no effect whatsoever.

    I believe the biggest problem with the F1 clutches is from people who treat it like a torque converter (automatic). If you try to do something with the car that would require you to slip the clutch a lot with a manual... then the F1 will slip the clutch a lot, just like you're asking.

    JMHO.
     
  8. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    no sorry - downshift (pull left paddle) in first will do nothing

    pulling both paddles at the same time will get you into neutral
     
  9. Coyote

    Coyote Rookie

    Nov 10, 2003
    36
    Toronto, Canada
    thomas_b,

    I concur with these statements except the one about reverse gear - my clutch seems fully engaged when driving in reverse at more than creeping speeds. Why would it be otherwise?

    For what it's worth regarding F1 problems, I picked up my 2003 360-F1 in June of last year, have put 5400km (3350 miles) on the car so far and the F1 system has simply worked perfectly in all that time. I wouldn't mind though if it shifted quickly at more modest throttle settings instead of only when you are driving flat out.
     
  10. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,046
    London

    As I understand it with the very latest software (i.e. late 2003) there is a 'creep' mode for helping to save the clutch when slow moving. It was mentioned in a UK car magazine that you have to do something different such as pull and hold both paddles for 5 seconds and the display then showed two small dashes.

    I thought it was first seen on the latest Maser 4200 Cambriocorsas but unfortunately I can't remember more details.
     
  11. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    Both our '02 Maserati coupe and '03 575 have the "creep" mode. It is accessed from first or reverse by downshifting, and is indicated by the flashing engaged gear signal. The 575 owners manual, unless I missed something, doesn't describe the feature in much detail; it refers to the "creep" as a "specific starting mode" that helps "avoid excessive overheating of the clutch during parking manoeuvres on upward slopes or in the event of repeated pick-up manoeuvres on upward slopes."

    The Rennlist folks seem somewhat biased against Ferrari, but perhaps that is to be expected.
     
  12. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Interesting... but how does it work? How does it reduce clutch slippage? How is it different from normal mode?

    I'm trying to imagine what I'd do differently in those situations with a manual... and how that's different than the F1 works now.

    Also, what's the indicator for a mis-shift if blinking is for creep? Or have they solved the mis-shift problem?
     
    Stan Camacho likes this.
  13. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    As for how it works, I'll defer to Napolis, if he's following this thread. In a post on another thread, he mentioned that it's software, not a real gear.

    Apparently the flashing display also is used to mean that a gear has not been engaged or disengaged correctly. I doubt you'd be likely to confuse the error flash with the creep flash, as the creep function only works at very low speeds, and is automatically de-selected as speed increases.

    I realize as I write this that I have never tried either the automatic or low traction modes in the 575.

    Perhaps the Maserati manual explains all this more completely.
     
  14. Hubert888

    Hubert888 F1 Veteran
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    May 14, 2003
    5,377
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    Hubert
    well i have a 2000 360 modena and my manual says nothing to the extent about downshifting while in 1st gear when parking or going slow.
     
  15. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    Mas coupe owners manual:

    "With the first or reverse gear engaged and pulling the DOWN lever, it is possible to select a special gearbox mode, which is particularly suited to parking maneuvers, especially on downhill stretches. The activation of this mode is indicated by a beep and the engaged gear symbol on the display flashes alternately with a dash. The system automatically resets to the standard operating mode when the conditions required for activating the parking maneuver mode are no longer present or if the DOWN lever is operated again."
     
  16. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
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    James Dunne
    Brian,

    It definitely is a software item. It is meant to relax the pressure used on the clutch in normal driving. It is definitely a "creep" mode.

    If you have come to a stop and are going to move very slowly, you can put the car in 1st and then hit the downshift paddle one more time. The indicator should begin to blink indicating that you are now in the creep mode. This should prevent any lurching or premature clutch grabbing and causing the car to jump. If you exceed about 3-5 mph in this gear, the car will automatically go into regular 1st gear because it assumes you are now going to drive regularly. It is also available in reverse. Just use your t-bar reverse selector and put the car in reverse and then hit the left paddle one time. The indicator will again begin to blink showing you are in "creep" in reverse. This should help relieve some of the clutch overheating that we smell when using reverse very much in the F1 equipped cars. Again, once you move quicker in reverse, the computer puts the car in regular reverse and tightens up the clutch.

    I do not know if this has helped but you should be able to extend the life of the clutch disc by utilizing this feature. Let me know how it works for you.
     
  17. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2001
    3,928
    Redmond, WA
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    Willis H
    Audiguy,

    Tried it last year when I first heard about it. Didn't work in my car. No blinking indicator. It just says "1".
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    It is a software tweak and it works well. I use it in 1 and R. BTW the Lambo e gear could really use this as parking a Gallardo is a lurchy affair.
    It greatly reduces the smell of burning clutches when parking which is prob. not too great to be snorting...
     
  19. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,281
    USA
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    Dan
    I have most definitely downshifted from 1st gear in a Maserati, and it will beep and go into this creep mode. I am pretty sure that I've experienced this in a 360 as well, but am not 100% sure.
     
  20. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2001
    3,928
    Redmond, WA
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    Willis H
    The only beep I hear in my 360 is when I engage reverse.
     
  21. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2001
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    Redmond, WA
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    Willis H
    OK, What I'm seeing here so far is that actual 360 owners (most are not newbies to the car) saying they don't have it in their cars and the creep mode is not listed in the owner's manual. So what's the deal?
     
  22. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    As it's the same system that's used in my Maser I don't see why it couldn't be programed into 360 as it's also in 575M. Willis in your town I'm sure any teenager could flash it in with his laptop...
     
  23. AnotherDunneDeal

    AnotherDunneDeal F1 Veteran

    Jun 2, 2003
    5,308
    N.Richland Hills, Tx
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    James Dunne
    Now you have me questioning my memory. I left FoDallas in May of 2003 and at that time I am absolutely sure it was in the Maserati and the 575. Now my brain cells are straining to remember if it was in the 360 as well. It would seem reasonable to think it was it is in the 2003 models due to updates made during production. I will attempt to verify thru some of my contacts........Man the "old-timers" is starting to kick in.
     
  24. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,281
    USA
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    Dan
    Confirmed update:
    360s do not have it, never did. '04 Masers, and possibly '03s no longer have it. '02s definitely had it.
     
  25. mw575

    mw575 F1 Rookie

    May 30, 2001
    2,924
    Lake Oswego,Or
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    Martin J Weiner,M.D.
    As soon as this damn snow and ice disappears I'll try it on my '03 575.
     

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