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360 F1 vs 6 spd, resale values

Discussion in '360/430' started by Gary(SF), Dec 19, 2003.

  1. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    How much is the F1 gearbox worth when it's resale time for a 360? I've heard two versions...one says there is no premium for the F1 on the used market, another says the F1 holds a substantial (~8k) premium, and is much easier to sell. What does the market actually say?

    Gary
     
  2. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,211
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I had a discussion about this with local Fcar store manager. He said that when 360's were first out, you could hardly give away one with a stick. But that changed. He felt the premium might be about 2K now (now being late 2002). He also mentioned that sticks were much more popular in some markets than others.
    Anecdotally there seems to be some movement back to sticks. It would be interesting to do a survey of dealership buyers and see what they would pay for the same car with and without F1.

    Dave
     
  3. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    38,914
    Texas!
    Gary, as a rule of thumb, consider yourself lucky if you can recoup 50% of the cost of any expensive option you add to a new car, e.g., the X50 package for a Porsche Turbo. In most cases, you will not get zip when you sell.

    However, the F1 really brings out the racing hertiage in the 360. If you want to pretend that you are closing in a Schumi in a 360, the F1 is the only way to go.

    A F1 in a Maranello, however, is a waste of money. Because the Maranello is such a torque monster, who needs a shifter anyway?

    You should ask your dealer, but I think the build rate is running like 2/3 F1s for the 360 cars. Perhaps there is a reason for that.

    Just my 2 cents.

    DrTax
     
  4. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    I think the rate is more like 80/20, and going higher. I'm in line for a 6 spd and FoSF tells me for the 6 month period from 10/03 to 3/04 they will get ONE 6 spd Modena. I'm going to have to consider changing to F1.

    Gary
     
  5. loungedog

    loungedog Formula Junior

    Nov 6, 2003
    286
    New Market, Ontario
    In speaking to a large Ferrari dealer (they move about 50 new Ferrari's a year plus 60 used ones) they told me that they sell about 75% of their 360's with the F1 option. The premuin is about $10,000 US for F1 and they are paying about $9500 more for 2003's to $6500 on 1999's extra on trade in's over a standard 6 speed.

    They felt it would be more but their were some issues with the early F1's not being very smooth in every day driving and they were eating clutches to boot. :(

    But, Ferrari now seems to have sorted out the software issues with the F1's to make them more seemless between shift's. He ravied about the new Stradale's software/shifts which makes its way to the remaining 2004 360's. :)

    The dealer believe's that 6 speeds 360's are still selling well used for three reasons.

    1. There are very few 360 6 speeds sold (25 %) of production, therefore, much less in inventory.

    2. Guys who are buying them used are more hardcore Ferrari traditionalist who generally had a standard trans. 308/348/355 before they still want the a 6 speed when they buy their used 360.

    3. Issues with the software of the F1's have discouraged some buyers of the used early F1's.

    He felt that as time passes more and more people will want the F1 option on their Ferrari's. Look at the latest car's to come out of Ferrari, Enzo, Stradale, and 612... they only are equiped with the F1.
     
  6. ty (360mode)

    ty (360mode) Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2002
    807
    Houston
    Full Name:
    Tim
    agree with most posted. i think the tide is starting to turn as 75-80% are f1's and yes, there are still some fcar buyers who actually want to use the left foot :)

    gary, your dealers statement is very similar to what i was recently told for the last half of '03. i still think generally the f1 will sell for more, but the gap seems to have shrunk.
     
  7. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,333
    While I am in agreement with the numbers being thrown around:

    It seems to me than 5 years down the road, demand for cars with transmissions that don't have extreme service bills looming might be (ahem) more desirable!

    The kind of service I am thinking is not the transmisison or clutch with are already hidesously expensive, but little thiings like multiple thousand dollars for the hydraulic pump that operates the F1. Some of the 355 F1s are starting to learn of the long term ownership issues not related to the electronics (another area of concern).

    So, maybe 15 years from now, the M6s will be the desirable 360 and the F1s are sought after only by wealthy people.

    So, if you intend to use the car for a couple to five years and dump it on the next guy; then F1 might be just you cup of tee. Otherwise, it might not be.
     
  8. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    38,914
    Texas!
    Mitch, I have had the same thought. F1s are really cool right, but who knows in 15 years, eh? I wonder how the owners of 355 F1s are doing?
     
  9. nberry

    nberry Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    714
    My original Spider was a 6 speed. My new will be F1. I did some research and concluded that the early F1's indeed had software issues. However it is my understanding the 2004 F1 are light years better than the original. Six speed gets really tiresome especially in traffic. On a track for 99.9% of the drivers having six speed will slow them down.

    Many believe 5 years from now it will be impossible to buy a 6 speed transmission for a high performance sport car. Other than subjective feelings by some traditionalist (AKA dinosaurs) there is not one benefit to having a 6 speed from a performance/comfort standpoint. Thus any car equipped with a F1 will be substantially more valuable in the future.
     
  10. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    9,153
    Boulder, CO
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    Scott
    Following this logic, the next step is a fully automatic F1, for there will not be one benefit to having a paddle shifter F1 from a performance/comfort standpoint.
     
  11. modenaboy

    modenaboy Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 17, 2003
    96
    Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Gordie
    I have a few comments on the F1 vs. 6 speed..

    1. I love to shift, and I mean the full experience, with the clutch and the gear lever. I love to heel and toe, and I don't get to do that with F1. As fast as F1 trannies can shift (and as smoothly as they downshift), I prefer doing it myself.

    2. I drive a lot in the street. I don't race in the street. I prefer the pleasure of the driving experience and employing skill (admittedly what little I have, ha) and smoothness over the last few seconds shaved off of getting from point A to point B.

    (Actually, even on the track I'd prefer a normal 6 speed stick, unless I was racing for money).

    Finally (to be a totally sarcastic jerk),

    If what you want is driver's aids that automatically do things for you, maybe the car should steer itself too. I am sure a computer will someday be able to drive my car around corners steering better than I can. No thanks! (Note: Before you tell me about ABS and traction control, note that those typically only engage in an emergency, or at the least on the far boundary of control, not every time I steer or use the brakes, unlike the F1 which is used for every shift.)

    By the way, I've driven two recent F1 360s, and they were great, amazing downshifts, but I prefer a 6 speed. The feeling when I get a heel and toe downshift perfect heading into a corner is worth 100 of those effortlessly perfect F1 downshifts.

    Unfortunately, for me, I suspect someday I won't be able to get a 6 speed anymore, at least that is looking like the handwriting on the wall. On the bright side I guess I can work on improving my lines through corners not having to worry about shifting... I guess the only question is whether or not engines will still run on gas or battery by that time (how are we gonna get that killer exhaust note in the year 2020?)
     
  12. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Where I am from people do not pay a premium for either transmission.

    Having said that.....F1 cars are a harder sell and I hit them harder on trade then I would a 6 speed car. You really can't give F1 cars away IMHO if there is a comparable 6 speed around for sale at the same time as your customer is looking for an F-car. THAT is what I consider the IMPORTANT factor in my marketplace.

    Perhaps Ferrari is "FORCING" dealers to order F1 cars since they invested all that money into making a system that no one really wants. Here's your allocation Mr. Dealer.....you get 4 360's this month.....1 x 6 speed....3 x F1. Other manufacturer's do this ALL THE TIME. Explain why you still get cassette players in new cars and you cannot easily find cassettes anymore ? Don't say it doesn't happen.

    There is no 6 speed available in the Stradale because..................???????

    I know many clients who had one.....and would never go back to F1.....they were not complaining about the lousy shifting of the early cars......they just felt it was not the kind of car that they wanted to drive after having owned one.
     
  13. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    May 28, 2003
    9,422
    Colorado
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    Bastuna
    I expressly did not order a Stradale because there was no manual transmission available. Since the rest of the car came out so nicely I rethink that every now and then but if they had made that thing in 6s, I would have one. I am sure that I am not alone. I am somewhat disappointed in Ferrari for not offering it.
     
  14. LP400S

    LP400S Formula 3

    May 18, 2002
    1,221
    West Coast
    KDS,
    Very well said. I have also felt that Ferrari is really pushing the F1 on dealers. Out of all the F car owners I know everybody says they would prefer a manual. I have driven the 360 F1 and really didn't like it. Would buy one with a 6 spd, but not a F1. Just my 2 cents.
     
  15. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2001
    3,928
    Redmond, WA
    Full Name:
    Willis H
    Nobody pushed me to order a 360F1. Nor was there pressure from the dealer to steer me toward the F1 system. It's what I wanted.
     
  16. johnbob

    johnbob Karting

    Nov 8, 2003
    124
    Oklahoma
    When I was shopping for a 360 Spider I first drove an F1. It was a novelty but not something that I enjoyed. Later drove a 6-speed (encouraged by dealer to opt for manual due to his personal dissapointment with the F1) and within 5 minutes of driving the car firmed up the deal and drove car home. Shifting in the 360 with the 6 speed manual is precise and effortless, not tiresome but in fact ranks very high in the fun factor.
     
  17. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,270
    Switzerland (NW)
    Without entering in a like/dislike F1 box debate, I think that the simple laws of supply/demand will prevail.
    Without knowing actual production numbers, I think that hype and corporate pressure have put a lot more F1 360's on the market than manuals.
    We are now in a post-hype market, paddle shifters are ubiquitous (real sequential or pseudo-autos), the ultimate cool could actually return to the good old stick and its brushed aluminium gate.

    In the long run, once the novelty effect fades and 2nd/3rd hand buyers shop for 360s, the value of F1 cars could actually turn out to be lower than manuals, simply because they are easier to find, and perhaps too, less appealing.

    PS i own a 355F1, no bias ...
     
  18. fvellani

    fvellani Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2002
    265
    I suppose that I am a traditionalist (a.k.a. dinosaur), in the sense that I dont think that I would want an F1 type tranny on my car. Im 18, I just started driving manual about 4 months ago, and to me, having a computer do basically all the work for me just isnt appealing. Having the clutch, and needing some semblance of skill to be able to drive the car in the infinite number of situations that I encounter on the roads every day is definitely much more satisfying than having a computer do the work for me...
     
  19. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ

    Nov 11, 2003
    12,754
    San Clemente
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    Anthony Tonokaboni
    Loungedog, the standard 6 spd will be available on the 612. Only the specialty models (Enzo and CS) are coming with the F1. Luca himself has said while he is in charge production cars will always offer a Manual Gearbox.
     
  20. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    While technically true, the availability of the manual on the 360 is so ridiculously slim (one 6 spd Modena in 6 months at Ferrari of San Francisco) that even though I prefer the manual, it looks like I am going to have to go with the F1.

    Gary
     
  21. DrewH

    DrewH F1 Rookie
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    Nov 4, 2003
    2,619
    Vancouver, BC Canada
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    Andrew
    If my wife jumped in an F1 car she could drive around like it's her's. If she got in a F-car with a stick she'd have difficulty driving the car.

    F-1 is good for the following reasons:

    1) If you are a formula 1 or Challenge driver (etc...) and having fun has nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish.

    2) You bought an F-1 car to drive around in traffic.

    3) You are not capable of shifting through the gates with ease.

    DrewH
     
  22. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2001
    3,928
    Redmond, WA
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    Willis H
    How about getting one because it's an intriguing system and I like it?

    F1 system bashing's getting old.
     
  23. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,404
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    gary..You should come up here to canada..Most 360's that I have seen are six speed cars. Maybe us Canadians like to drive our cars,not let a computer do it. Actually the F1 cars seem to be quite a rarity around here. Most people whom I know and service there Ferrari's for, they would much rather have a six speed car. One of my customers has a 328 and a 360f1. He perfers the 328 to drive around in!! He likes the shifter. He told me the 360 is a pain in the butt at lower speeds. Jerky and just plain embareassing when he gets stuck in stop and go traffic.

    Seems to me the F1 option will be a really though sell in the used market. Who wants to fix a trans that will eventually be worth more then the car?
     
  24. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Do you guys remember my post a few months ago about our Yellow/Blue 1999 355 F1 spider that we had in stock for 18 months ?

    I could have sold that car alot earlier, many times over...even in that color combo, as "unusual" as it was...if it was a stick. That was never mentioned before because I didn't think it was relevant to the original post at the time.

    No one here is bashing F1 gearboxes either as someone suggested......we are merely discussing the marketplace reaction to the introduction of this technology.
     
  25. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,031
    Seattle/Bay Area/NYC
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Sorry for the late reply; just got back into town...

    After I had bought my 2004 360F1, I again asked my dealer for the straight talk on 360 F1 resale values vs the manual. I figured that since I had already bought my car they had no real reason to "influence" me one way or the other.

    Anyway, they said that as the car depreciates, the difference in resale between the transmissions obviously become less and less. However, he said that the used F1s will sell much faster. He cited examples in their own inventory of 6spds taking much longer to sell than the same car with the F1. Spiders included.

    I think a lot of the F1 image issues may have come from early examples having software problems. I can tell you, however, that my 2004 F1 shifts wonderfully and is a hell of a lot better than earlier years - by far. Ask me again in 6 months. :)
     

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