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360 Stradale Break Disk Cooling

Discussion in '360/430' started by thomas_b, Feb 15, 2004.

  1. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    One of the areas of the Stradale that seems to have seen little attention during the modification from the 360 Modena version is cooling of the brake disk / caliper unit – based on some observation in another thread that the 360 Modena has little air flow around the break in the front I looked into the Challenge and Enzo design

    The Challenge (same suspension design) has ducting mainly onto the break disks:
    - Front: an air intake (scoop) is mounted under the lower suspension arm – a tube ducts the air to a box that guides it through the steering knuckle – on the other side a shield directs air into the inside of the brake disk
    - Rear: from the lower rear air intake a tube brings the air to a box similar to the front that guides air through the knuckle and a shield on the other side guides it onto the disk

    The Enzo (same brakes / caliper) has significant hardware to duct air onto the break disk and in front onto the caliper
    - Front: an air intake is mounted under the lower suspension arm looking forward- the air is ducted through a tube in-between the suspension arms – a hood on top of the caliper funnels the air onto the pads
    - Front: a shield is mounted facing the inside of the disk brake, i.e. the area that is not covered by the carbon friction material and is open to the channels in the disk – an air intake scoop is mounted on the shield facing forward
    - Rear: similar to the front a shield is mounted facing the inside of the disk with an air intake – difference is that it is behind the axle vs in front

    I assume the first thing one could do is to adapt the Enzo’s break caliper cooling mechanism – at minimum from its basic layout it should fit – I wonder if the parts are standard pieces that are available from Bremo?

    The rear break disk cooling of the Challenge car should work for the Stradale too – again from a basic system layout

    The Challenge front break cooling is clearly in conflict with the Enzo caliper cooling since the tubing occupies the same space. This would require some engineering to be solved.

    feedback?
     
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  3. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Got any pictures?
     
  4. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    pain to get them - here you go

    1st caliper cooling

    2nd front CH

    3rd rear CH
     
  5. Victory

    Victory Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    410
    Have no contribution to make here. But certainly very keen to see what you guys come out with solutions, though.
     
  6. acw

    acw Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    122
    Interesting point. But have you experienced any excessive brake heat issue?

    AW
     
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  8. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    Given that, I hate to ask... how about pics of the Enzo setup?
     
  9. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    I read somewhere that the brake cooling on the CS was different to the Modena. I've had a look at the stuff I've got but cant find it. The front spoiler intake and damn are different (anybody can see that) which might help the front brakes a bit but can't see the rear ones.

    What you say is that the CS and Modena are the same, is this really the case and is there a problem with the brakes heating given that the carbon ceramic brakes are supposed to really work very well when they are hot?
     
  10. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Yeah, that was also my first thought when I saw Thomas' post... given the carbon ceramic brakes, maybe you want to leave the heat they generate there for max performance.

    HOWEVER, he then showed the Enzo has brake ducting. That's what I'm interested in seeing... just how much ducting and to where. The Enzo weighs a bit more and may have different air circulation into the wheels, so maybe it needs a little bit of help whereas the CS does not?

    Or more likely, they got cheap on the CS, and really the setup would be better with the Enzo ducting/shields installed. Anyone know?

    I certainly don't want to add any unneeded unsprung weight to the car... even if it will be very lightweight.
     
  11. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    no

    what started me digging was a remark from Phil "Cooling is the major problem.......the 360 has none, even the CS has no cooling! Use challenge air ducts and then the steel braided flexi lines that go with it." in the thread http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8197

    F also has issued a recommendation to increase the number of cool down laps for the CS with minimum braking

    from looking into the P car carbon brakes I know that there exist a problem with heat in the area surrounding the brake disk, i.e. changes are necessary if you want to retrofit the brakes

    I was more looking for feedback what people think, i.e. if this is an issue or not - I am working at gaining an extra few HP and to reduce weight - don't want to find myself fighting another battle
     
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  13. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    This could be more about not stopping with the brakes still hot than them getting too hot in normal operation. However, at the very least, the ducting would make the cool-down laps more effective, requiring fewer... afterall, at most events, its not really considered proper to take an extra cool-down lap... usually you just drive around the paddock a while to cool them.

    Its hard to do more than speculate without Ferrari engineer to answer this simple question:

    Why do you have ducting on the Enzo but not on the Stradale?

    Possible answers:
    1. The Enzo is heavier.
    2. Without ducting on either, the air flow through the wheels is adequate on the Stradale, but not on the Enzo.
    3. The ducting is probably not needed on either, but for the price of the Enzo, we overbuild everything.
    4. We figure the average Stradale owner is more of a track guy than the average Enzo owner, so we trust the former to adequately cool the brakes.
    5. We figure the average Enzo driver will be going much faster than the average Stradale owner, so they'll tax the brakes much more, and thus need extra cooling.

    And the real answer is probably something else altogether. But each answer has different implications on whether many of us will be adding ducting or not.
     
  14. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    yes that is one of the questions - the second on is how good is air flow around brakes of the CS- the Enzo break ducts are mainly a shield and a forward facing air intake - I assume that there is enough air flow it only needs to be funneled into the inside of the disks - now without the F factor these are cheap pieces even considering the R&D effort - so I am surprised that they have not made it onto the CS especially since the CH has a similar shields (location) - Phil's statement made me simply curious - however as you stated we are back to guess work until we find out on the track
     
  15. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    6) The average Enzo owner never gets in the car let alone drive it so putting fancy ducting all arond it just gives more things to show off about :)
     
  16. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    The 360 Challenge brakes could handle 600BHP without modification, so a few tweaks to your Stradale aren't going to send you in the fence.

    The 360 N-GT brakes are even better, 6 pot calipers, bigger discs again and really fat pads for endurance racing.

    Cooling Carbon brakes can cause you problems, as stated before, but the road car carbon disc compound is fairly tame as it needs to work when cold, so you're not going to get in trouble with "some" cooling.

    I have no experience with wear rates of Stradale brakes yet, so unless it's particularly high when hot, I'd be inclined to leave well alone.........do you get any/much brake dust on your wheels??? Have you measure pad/disc thickness before/after a track day????

    Remember on the 360 road car, turning circle would be compromised with extra ducting, unless you got really clever with a good race shop fabby.
     
  17. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 3, 2001
    11,237
    Austin, TX
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    Randy
    From what I have seen so far, the average Enzo driver is more than an enthusiast. And some of those individuals track their Enzos. This might be few, but still... they are out there.

    As for heat issues - Brian will be running Motorsport Ranch (MSR) most of the time. The track is an interesting layout, if you haven't been. Quite different than something with a long straight, which allows you to be off of the brakes for a period of time to allow the brakes to cool. At MSR, the Brakes get a lot hotter than TWS, because the brakes are not allowed too much time to cool. Ducting would definately help out.
     
  18. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,999
    7) The Stradele has 409-425 HP (sic) whereas the Enzo has 660 HP and the brakes need to have cooling proportional to the power of the engine, but caliper clamping proportional to the weight of the cars (which are not that different).
     
  19. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765

    No brake dust at all, which is really nice

    can’t find the article but its analysis of airplane carbon disks was as follows: disk wear is higher with multiple successive break applications because of particles on disk surface acting like sandpaper – during constant breaking and in the optimum temperature range a thin gas film builds on the disk which protects it – once save temperature is exceeded film is destroyed and excessive heat reaches into the disk and weakens fibers and therefore disk

    note that this maps to what was said before by a guy in France about excessive wear of his rear wheel disks with ASR on and sliding on the track – the computer controls slip through ABS type like breaking ….

    a weakened disk (by heat) means that you get larger and connected holes in the friction surface – so I believe what you want to avoid is overheating the disk and that is for example what the F advice about cool down laps is all about – my worry is not ending up in the wall – I simply want to treat the material in the proper way
     
  20. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    I'm going to bend the rules a little and say that I have a FULL set of N-GT carbon fibre brake ducts that I had made and got stuck with due to the turning circle hiccup.

    It's a full set. The N-GT takes it's cooling air from the back of the water radiators instead of the wishbone scoop like a challenge, so it's actually not "too cool" causing dead brakes after long straights.

    The rear is the same as challenge.

    The parts are perfect REPLICA of Michelotto system, but with Hong Kong build quality (shiny and pretty but a bit rough aroung the edges).....and pricing.

    Full set 10 carbon fibre parts plus steel braided flexi lines, about 2 days skilled labour to fit, some modifications to gravel guards required. Parts only $1250 AUS......

    If this is offensive to anyone I'll remove it, or the moderator can of course.
     

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