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360 vs M3

Discussion in '360/430' started by DBR328&330, Nov 20, 2003.

  1. DBR328&330

    DBR328&330 Formula Junior

    May 31, 2001
    605
    Winchester, VA
    Full Name:
    Daniel Reese
    I had a chance to drive a 360 F1 today. The story behind this opportunity is real cool, maybe I'll go into it later. Anyway, the owner let me drive it hard, screaming all the to 8000 rpm- my spine is still tingling!! Got her up to 110 mph. I really got a chance to see what she is all about on backroads. This was soooo much different than my 328, although I think my 328 is equally fun with the manual and its handling characteristics. I am definitely a 6 speed person.

    Later it dawned on me driving home in my E46 M3, that the M3 is more in your face and beastly than the 360. The 360 is easier to drive! Also the M3 is almost as fast and sounds almost as good.

    I bet if you let people drive both back to back, while somehow blinding them to which one was the Ferrari, ALOT of people might think the M3 was the Ferrari as it is more uncivilized, harsh and harder to drive- kind of what we traditionally expect with exotics.

    Thoughts??
     
  2. allanlambo

    allanlambo F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2002
    4,363
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    Allan
    Better get your flame suit on! M3 almost as fast as a Ferrari? OMG


    Personally, i agree with many of your comments.
     
  3. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    No flames, Ellen, he makes a good point. I have driven both, on the track & on the street.

    While the M3 has DSC stability control that arguably makes it easier to drive safely fast, it is a much more top-heavy (and just plain heavy) car, and thus is doing more in the corners, than the 360. The M3, properly driven, will do 0-60 in the low 4's, which is about what the 360 does. Different cars, similar 0-60 times.

    On track, the 360 has far better brakes that last far longer before fading (with stock pads) and that have FAR better airflow to them. In the manual gated 6 speed, the 360 is also almost impossible to force into a mis-shift, whereas the M3's VERY tight shift pattern of its stick makes it easy to do a 5-2 downshift without really erring very much (I have seen it happen).

    That said, the M3 doesn't have the edgy feel or handling poise that the 360 does when really pushed...which is what the 360 was meant for. Part of that is the front engine of the M3, part of it is the extra weight, and part of it is the M3's odd suspension that rides a bit too harshly over street bumps yet wallows heavily in fast corners & on the track.

    Both sound great--I will agree. The M3's paddle shifter has the slight edge, IMO, but I do not care for paddle shifters in general. The M3 has more torque at street speeds, but also has the upper RPM power & breathing, whereas the 360 has it all up top...which is how the M3 equals its 0-60 time with 60 fewer HP...

    Overall, the M3 coupe is a LOT of performance car for the money. Take 300-400 pounds out of it, and you have a worldbeater...a top=heavy worldbeater, but a worldbeater.
     
  4. robiferretti

    robiferretti F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    3,252
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    rob ferretti
    The m3's looks and performance are no where near on par with that of a 360...Those cars go faster than 110 mph. Well atleast the Ferrari does :)
     
  5. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    I own a 2002 M3, and have driven several 360's, so am somewhat qualified to comment. The M3 definitely feels (and is) taller and narrower, and that feeling affects the real and perceived vehicle dynamics. It's got a great motor, but I really don't think it is quite that close 0 - 60...the best times I've seen for the M3 are about 4.7, and I haven't seen a SMG test under 5.0. The Road & Track road test summary shows the 360 and the Z06 in a dead heat at 1/4 mi, with the M3 a good half-second slower, which I think is realistic. On the road, the difference in feel and feedback is enormous. The M3 is a great 4-place, 50k car, but in no way does it ever feel like a 360.

    Gary
     
  6. mw575

    mw575 F1 Rookie

    May 30, 2001
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    Martin J Weiner,M.D.
    Maranelloman
    "low 4's for the M3 if PROPERLY DRIVEN "??????????? Had a '01 6spd M3-best I ever recorded with a G timer (on a cold day) was 4.8.Never saw better than a 4.7 in print-mostly 4.8's. At the same time my euro '99 360 clocked 4.5's.
    I now have a '03 m3 smg and could only record a 4.9.The feel of the 360 was much lighter and more tossable than the M3.The E46 is a great everyday play toy but it ain't no 360!
     
  7. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

    Nov 2, 2003
    8,391
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    A
    Perception and reality are often very different, even 'though subjective evaluations may feel close. The real test is how much time does the 360 take to accelerate from 100mph to 180 mph and how will an M3 compare. Poorly is my estimation, unless it falls off a very tall cliff.

    There's no BMW rancor here. I have a Z8 which is by far and away my favorite sports car to drive and I tracked an M3 extensively and always felt exhilarated after each session. But IMVHO the 360 is simply in another league from the M3. Everything about the 360 is simply better, as it should be for the price differential. Brakes, acceleration, exclusivity, interior, shape - and on and on.....
     
  8. ferrari355gtb

    ferrari355gtb Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Maybe the M3CSL is the answer - considerably lighter than the stock motor and higher bhp (360bhp ?).

    Can you get one of these stateside ?
     
  9. madturk

    madturk Formula 3
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    Nov 2, 2003
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    There is no way the M3 can be compared to the 360. I have a Dinan M car and my cousin has a 02 M3. Doesn't matter which one of us drives the little M beats the M3 every single time. Then sometimes we bring the 355 next to the M3. Off the line to about 80mph. at least 2/3 car lenghts. On the highway from 60mph. to 160 or so about 20/30 car lenghts. Usually what happens is after 140mph. the M3 starts to slow while 355 is pulling hard. Now as far as I know the 360 is a good bit more powerfull the the 355, or am I mistaken. As far as the feeling goes the M3 feels very smooth and heavy next to the 355. When you go around the corners they both can be driven really hard. The M3 is bit more happy going sideways and it is alot of fun. But overall they are such different animals. I don't know maybe I am really bad in math or you might be mistaken a 348 with a 360.
     
  10. Jerry Fisher

    Jerry Fisher Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    75
    Not a realisitc comparison. I own a 2002 M-3 and do not think
    its fair to compare it to a 911 or any pure sports car. The M-3 is
    an amazing sports sedan that compares "empirically" to many sports cars. It has a superb ENGINE and excellent handling dynamics but its also heavy, luxurious and has 4 seats.
    I get more connection with the vehicle in my 308GTB than with the M-3 so to even speculate on any comparison with a 360 is unfair.
    The M-3 is a great car but its not a FERRARI................
     
  11. madturk

    madturk Formula 3
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    Don't get me wrong I think BMW's are the best. I have one and I wouldn't change it for anything. They have dominated the market in every class accept for the minivan and the highend sportscar. Now I am not sure who dominates the minivan class but I am certain that Ferrari is the class leader when it comes to serious sports cars.
     
  12. madturk

    madturk Formula 3
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    Nov 2, 2003
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    Also, if you guys are comparing a 360 to the M3. I should compare my 355 to the Enzo. I've seen an Enzo. The only thing I can come up right now is they are both red, and ohh yeah the little horse on the back.
     
  13. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
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    Yes, you are mistaken. The M3 has 333 hp, the 355 has 380. Then there is the drag factor, which above 100 mph has got to be huge.

    Gary
     
  14. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    May 28, 2003
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    Bastuna

    I thought that your F355 caught on fire? Maybe that was someone else. Anyway, I have driven several M3's on the track and the street and several 360 F1's and I can't comment on the faster, more beastly, etc. but I can say that the 360 is surprisingly refined and the SMG in the M3, IMHO, is a better unit than the F1. I wouldn't buy an F1 in a Ferrari but I would buy the SMG in an M3.
     
  15. madturk

    madturk Formula 3
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    Yeah it was my car that caught on fire. It is being fixed right now and it should be out in about 2 weeks, better then ever (lots of extras this time). Now as far as hp. goes the M3 does have 333hp. but as we all know hp. is not everything, especially on a BMW. Or explain me how the M coupe with 240hp. stock and 310hp.dinan beats the M3 everytime. The weight difference is not much. That M coupe vs. 355 off the line to about 80mph. is about one car lengt. It comes very close, beleive me.
     
  16. Tony Fuisz

    Tony Fuisz Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    162
    Bethesda, MD
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    Tony Fuisz
    I've driven them both too-I think the other part of it is I had no mental issue with driving the M3 as fast as it would go (as I have faith that an M3 is as close to bullet-proof as possible and it's progressive as it starts to slide) but I would run out of guts to drive the 360 the same way on the road at least.
    This is sort of the same question as whether a 60's big block vette on skinny tires is more fun than a ZO6.
     
  17. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
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    I have a 2002 M3 and I have huge issues with driving the M3 hard since the motor blew big-time with the bearing problems they've been having.

    Gary
     
  18. stokpro

    stokpro F1 Rookie
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Jun 25, 2003
    4,244
    Himalayas
    I have driven both an '03 M3 6spd and '02 360 6spd and argue that they are both fast, but are completely different beasts. The M3 sounds nothing like a 360. I personally think the E36 M3 sounds better than than the E46, however, the newer styling wins hands down. E46 M3 is a great everyday car, great combination of performance, handling, luxury, 4 seats, and comfort, but c'mon, the comparison is like apples to oranges.
     
  19. Tony Fuisz

    Tony Fuisz Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    162
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    Tony Fuisz
    All the more reason to drive it hard while under 4 yr 50K.
     
  20. DBR328&330

    DBR328&330 Formula Junior

    May 31, 2001
    605
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    Daniel Reese
    Guys, guys,

    I bleed Ferrari red. There is no comparison- I was just noting the DIFFERENCES.
     
  21. enzomoon

    enzomoon Guest

    I own a 1996 355 coupe and a 2003 M3 SMG. The M3 is the best all around performance car out there for the money in my opinion. The 355 is clearly faster, however, especially above 120. I have tracked the M3 and on a somewhat damp track with all of its electronic assists it blew away every Ferrari at the event. However, in dry conditions, while it is still one hell of a performer it won't stay with my 355 and certainly cannot be compared to a 360. Even Roundel magazine which conducted a comparison test between the M3 and 911(and also brought along a 360 for benchmarking) said that the 360 was on another level beyond the M3 or 911.
    One aspect of the car(besides value for money)which is highly impressive is its SMG transmission. While I still prefer a manual, for a sequential gearbox it is probably the best out there. It is certainly the fastest and twice as quick as the 360. In Sport Mode with traction control off it will shift gears in 80 milliseconds(about as fast as the average F1 gearbox shifted in 2001 when the M3 came out, according to various articles I've read).
    As fine a car as it is it still is not near the level of a 355 let alone a 360. Unfortuanately, mine sits in the driveway all day because the 550 gets used as a daily driver!!
    Mine is for sale, actually, if anyone is interested: 2002 SILVER/Red interior, loaded with 23,000 miles, mint. Will take $39,900.

    Regards,

    Mark
     
  22. Gman

    Gman Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 15, 2003
    736
    York, PA
    I think I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. I own and drive daily a 2001 M3 and really do enjoy driving the car. For what it is (< $60K 4 seat sport coupe) I feel that it is in a league of it own when considering performance versus cost. It is a car that I can drive daily (even in snow), drive hard, has a great body shape, gives a lot of other performance cars a true run for their money, and still have room in the trunk for a couple sets of golf clubs and luggage for a weekend get away. Having said this I look forward to the day of bringing a 355 or 550 F-car and pulling it into my garage. I just believe that the body lines of Ferrari’s combined with the sound of a V8 or V12 makes these cars special. I truly believe that a Ferrari is a moving piece of art that you just could not ever look at and get bored. Also I like the idea of driving a car that you just could not become complacent with. A true sports car that demands respect.

    Love my M but can’t wait to own Ferrari.
     
  23. ferrari_kid

    ferrari_kid Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2003
    768
    I don't think they allow any CSL's stateside. But while you're at it, if you have an SCCA race license BMW will remove the 155mph limiter on your CSL.

    They've done comparisons with the CSL, 360, and GT3 before. I'm not sure of the outcome so I won't comment on that. But if we are talking about a more pure sports car the CSL would be the M3 to compare to the 360. But Ferrari's equivalent to the CSL would be the 360CS. A stripped down beefed up version of a production line car.
     
  24. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    Scott
    Just wondering; is your blood Rosso Scuderia or Rosso Corsa?
     
  25. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest


    MW, I will wager that neither you nor I can perceive the difference between a 4.7 or 4.8 second 0-60 and a 4.5 second one. For a 62 HP difference, on a lighter car (360), I would expect a bigger difference, no? Plus, a 0.2 second difference can usually be chalked up to reaction time, clutch take-up (Ferrari clutches are notoriously quicker on take up than BMW clutches...), tire type/pressure/condition, environmental conditions, fuel type, and driver skills that day.

    As I posted, the M3 is a whole lotta car for the money. The 360 is a 360, as it should be for 3x the money...but the M3 is, for all intents & purposes, on par with it below 150 MPH.
     

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