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365GT2+2

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by superbimmer, Nov 8, 2003.

  1. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
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    So.Orange County CA
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    Bill
    Well ... I might as well start a thread on my model. I'm looking for owners of "original" specimens, as close to #13131 as possible (US version) I need to check out some originality issues, as I prepare for the FCA2004 concours.
     
  2. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
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    Santa Fe, NM
    Bill, I'm not on the computer that has all of my shots, but Bill Bowdish (of Phoenix - owns 11727) and I have been collecting notes on engine bay originiality for a few years and Bill has interrogated a few concours judges on the topic. But we both have early euro cars (see my profile pic). What do you need to know? Is your car the one that had the recent Jens Haller motor rebuild?
     
  3. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Jan 5, 2002
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    I have 12327. I've owned for the last 10 years, it's probably about average on the originality scale.

    Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
     
  4. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
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    Bill
    Bryan ... Yes, my engine was completely rebuilt by Jens Paulson. I would really appreciate "picking" your mind about originality issues ... especially, plating and finishes. Also a couple of other areas ... switches, trim. We all know how many subtle variations came out of the factory, during a models run. I have had concours judges disagree. So, the closer I can get to #13131-US version the better the info.

    Don ... thanks for the offer. Probaly best thing to do, is bring up each area, and let everyone offer their thoughts. Pictures would be terrific ... because concours judges have to be SHOWN that a specific thing is proper.

    Tomorrow, I'll take some digital pics of a couple of areas, for everyone to comment.

    Thanks!!
     
  5. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    good grief, I meant Jens Paulsen, not Jens Haller. Bad slip, my apologies.
     
  6. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
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    Bill
    This one involves switches ... judges tell me that the electrci window toggles are not correct (they are Alpha Romeo replacements) However, my mechanic, Jens, says that they ARE correct, because when he took apart the console to remove the engine, he observed that the openings for the switches are original, and have NOT been modified for a non-original switch to fit. Hiowever, I have never seen another 365GT2+2 with these switches ... but then all that I've seen have 4 switches. My quarter windows are manually operated ... I believe that was a change from the European versions, for the US market.

    Anybody know about this?
     
  7. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
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    Bill
    This pics is of the air vent area behind the rear side windows. Judges tell me that the paint BEHIND the vent should be black, not red (as the entire car)?? I've had her judged nearly a dozen times now ... first time I've hear that one!
     
  8. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
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    Bill
    This one concerns finishes ... should these parts be painted, or metal? I've been given conflicting info ... and I have a little of both in my engine compoartment. Hmmm ... Also, I'm told that the base of my hood safety catch is not original (looks like someone made it)? Should it be riveted, or bolted?
     
  9. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
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    Bill
    Hi, guys ... I have had the opportunity to take some pics of the areas that are getting negative attention from judges. I'll post each, and let everyone offer their comments ... Thanks!

    First one shows the taillight assemble ... judges say that it should not be all smooth polished, but top & bottom thirds should be matte finish.
     
  10. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    My window switches look quite different from that, although mine may not be original either (and I have the electric vent windows).

    If I get a chance I will post some pics.
     
  11. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
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    Bill
    donv ... yes, the cars with electric vent windows have 4 switches, mounted sideways. They are of a different style ... I have many pictures of that configuration. This is the issue ... what style switches are used in the 2 switch configuration? I believe that the US version was the only ones equipped that way. Thanks for your help.
     
  12. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
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    Bill - I have an early 68 euro car (11199; 25th of the 801) so I have the 4-switch arrangement. I recall taking a close look at a later american spec car about 4 years ago and chuckling at the two rocker switches. They looked cheap - like they were right out of a Lucas parts bin. I remember specifically being surprised that they looked like the exact style of curved rocker button I had in my MGBGT (fan switch). The rockers in your picture are not curved but are two planes meeting in a crease in the middle of the switch. The problem is, I don't know which one is correct; I was sure at the time that the curved rocker switches could not have been correct, but now I don't know. I think the Bluemel book has interior pics of an american spec car that might show those switches better.

    The tail-light surround is supposed to have a grainy or pebbly-looking dull finish on the top and bottom thirds of the surround. I have seen this finish on other cars in various stages of wearing off due to washing over the years. One small corner of mine is starting to do that - I'll try to capture the correct finish in pics this weekend.

    I'll take some pictures of my hood latch.

    I've never seen the body color through the matte-black louvers at the c-post on any other queen. I think they're supposed to be black - of course, my entire car is black! I've been poked for having my engine bay vents painted the same gloss black as the rest of the car; the judges say they're supposed to be the same matte-black as the c-post louver and I think the judges are right.
     
  13. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
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    Bill
    Hi, Bryan ... yep I've always thought these window switches did look a little cheap, for a Ferrari. Jens Paulson thinks they are correct ... Tom Shaughnessy says they're not. I need pictures from a totally original American version on this ... Bluemel's book shows only the Euro version.

    My vents are glossy black ... but then my car is red, so they look great.

    Thanks for you comments ... pics of these areas from you car would help. How original is she?

    Bill
     
  14. Bryan

    Bryan Formula 3

    Thought I'd throw this into the mix.

    See http://home.earthlink.net/~fchat/images/365GT2+2TailLights.jpg

    for Bluemel's closeup of the tailights. Yours appears to be as correct as anything in the 60's Ferrari era.

    He doesn't mention the 2 vs 4 switch config. However, logic would leave one to think that for MANUAL q'lights, there would be only two switches left for the windows.

    The color appear to be black behind the finned "vents".
     
  15. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Here is a pic of my taillight surround w/ flash so the matte vs/ polished zones show up.
     
  16. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
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    Bill
    Bryan ... that's what the judges wanted to see, and all the ones I've seen on other cars look that way. Mine are totally smooth/shiny. Are they not original? But if not, where did they come from? Wonder if they were rechromed, and in the process, the matte areas were changed. Hummm ... what would it take to correct that?

    By the way ... I also need to come up with a solution for my steering wheel. It drives some of the judges crazy, because of it's condition. BUT ... I've been told by some real experts (Charles Betz & Jens Paulson) that they can NOT be recovered correctly! What to do?

    Thanks for your comments!
     
  17. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    You know, I'll have to check but I could swear my taillight surrounds are all shiny and don't have the matte finish at all. I will look at it later today.

    Can't help you with the steering wheel-- mine has the wood wheel.
     
  18. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
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    The tiny corner where matte finish has worn off of one of my surrounds reveals a bright finish beneath. My guess would be that a previous owner when faced with a spotty finish decided to spend 10 minutes with chrome polish and take the matte off entirely. I'm almost positive (can you ever say 'positive' w/ old Ferraris?) that the combo matte/polish finish is the only correct finish. I believe the same surround is also on the later 365GT4 2+2 and is a combo matte/polished finish. (I don't have my books here so I can't check at the moment. These must be available somewhere . . .

    My steering wheel is also wood.

    I was going to send a picture of my hood latch, but forgot how horrible it looks at the moment. If I had to guess, I'd say the actual catches are supposed to be cad plated w/ the attachment plates the same stain black as the engine compartment. Yours look right (and good) to me, Bill.

    I've posted this pic before, but since we're on the topic. . . .
    This is an old pic before I had the modern radio removed and the restored muilti-band Blaupunkt re-installed. Note, though, the modern round speaker cut through the metal decorative band at the bottom of the door panel. I think I have new leather on the door panels because the usual perforated grid pattern for the door speakers is not there at all. This is pretty far down on my list of things to bring back to original - the Ferrari concours rules supposedly don't require a deduction for stereo upgrades which frankly surprises me.

    I got my car in 99. It was originally rosso rubino w/ tan. It became black w/ tan during a 5 to 7 year restoration done in the 90s. I have the original 10-hole alloys which are beat to hell and without tires. The p.o. got five-stars which aren't correct for my year but look nice. They currently have XWXs on which are antiques themselves and need to be replaced - I'll probably put Pirelli P4000s on. I sometimes think that I'll restore the 10-holes, but most of the time the plan is to save up for Borranis for show and keep the 5-stars for driving.
     
  19. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
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    Bill
    Great info, guys ...

    As you know, Ferraris changed a bit sometimes, during production runs, especially when it came to off-shelf-parts ... so judges occassionally have to be shown that something IS correct. Your explaination, Bryan, could be right ... leaving the question of how to return my surrounds to the proper look. I may have to go looking for a wooden wheel ... but I like the leather. I believe they were also supplied on some Daytonas.

    Donv ... I'll look forward to seeing your pics.

    Sounds like we 365GT2+2 concours car owners, should start putting together a carefully researched guide to what actually is correct on these cars. Certainly Bluemel's book doesn't address these issues thoroughly.

    BTW ... here is an interesting picture taken at the 1969 24 Hours of Le Mans Race. The 365GT was the official car of the Course Marshall ... here it is shown driven by Fernand Tavano, and is bringing in Jean Claude Killy, after his Alpine broke-down. Full load ... wow!!
     
  20. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Okay, I checked on a few things:

    1) My taillight surrounds are shiny with no matte finish. Of course, this doesn't mean anything as a previous owner had all the chrome redone, and he probably did this as well.

    2) My rear quarter vents are black with no evidence of body color behind them. My car was originally silver and repainted resale red in the early 80s, so this could have been changed then.

    3) My hood latch is also black.

    BTW, I was watching "Le Mans" the other night and I noticed that towards the end, Steve McQueen encounters the girl as she's standing next to a brown 365 2+2, as though she's getting out. I think it's the first time I've seen one in a movie!
     
  21. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
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    Bill
    Don ... very interesting. I'll have to rent "Le Mans", and view it again, after all these years.

    Thanks for your observations ... I still looking for a completely original specimen that might have the tail-light surround like ours. If not, perhaps Bryan is correct. But then I'll have to figure a way to restore the finish.

    I'm beginning to believe that the color behind my vents should be black. When the car war re-painted, that was accidentally changed ... I guess. Makes sense to me ... black behind the vents.

    The hook latch should be cad finished I'm sure. The question is about the base, where it is attached to the hood.

    Take some pics of the details of your car.

    B.
     
  22. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
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    Bill
    Bryan ... should the leather boot on the emergency brake be black? Just a thought.

    Isn't it amazing all the areas, large and small ... that can get "changed" over the years! It's a never-ending project.
     
  23. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
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    Santa Fe, NM
    I've had conflicting opinions on the emergency brake boot - the half-dozen or so other queens i've seen have all black interiors . . . My buddy Bill in AZ has crema interior leather and I believe his boot is black.

    How does your AC run when its fully charged? still lacking in the fan power department? In the next month I'll put on new brake hoses at all four corners and get my stebro stainless exhaust hung (mufflers only - the ANSA tailpipe secitons are still plenty good).

    Next project in the category of 'stuff I am missing' is that I have to build from scratch the battery hold-down w/ the hooks for the windshield washer fluid bag. I also have to get hold of a windshield washing pump and the bag. I have the spritzers and the T connection. Next valve adjustment, I'll blast and respray the cam covers w/ the right crinkle black . ..

    What style and where are you exterior rear view mirrors mounted. I truly believe there is no right answer on this one. I've seen round w/ flat back, rectangular w/ flat back, and round w/ bullet-type, mounted anywhere in an 18" area on driver's side only and on both sides. I've been told that dealers installed the mirrors, hence the wide variation.

    always something to do.
     
  24. superbimmer

    superbimmer Karting

    Jan 12, 2003
    241
    So.Orange County CA
    Full Name:
    Bill
    You are right ... I've sent a number of different mirrors also. However, what is on my car have seems to be the most common. The black ones just don't look correct ... they give the look of "after-market"

    My AC runs great ... maybe not by modern standards, but pretty well. There are some fairly hot Southern Cal days, where I'm very glad I have it!

    Jens has worked more on the electrical ... the problem is the relays. The double-pole one that kicks on both fans, is under-designed, and has trouble keeping up with the current. Those motors draw a ton! At the moment, we've got them working properly ... they come on and off as they should, when the engine temp gets just above 190. I'd love to find NOS replacements ... OR a modern relay that will fit inside the electrical box on the fender.

    Speak of the devil! I just worked on my washer system. NOS pump, NOS hose, cleaned up the bag (original) ... had to come-up with a "T" connection (but it's fairly higgen) ... and the spritzers are no correct for our car, but are proper Ferrari from a slightly later model. Judges haven't called me on them yet.

    As you said ... always something to do! Surprising that for a car as elite as a Ferrari, many original owners didn't seem too pre-disposed to originality! We spend SO MUCH time chasing down parts for cars that are, otherwise, in great shape!

    Here's my mirror ... you can see the position:
     
  25. Bryan

    Bryan Formula 3

    FYI. The Black Wrinkle Finish Paint from Eastwood is VERY close to OEM. What I've bought before from run of the mill auto parts is too coarse a wrinkle.

    http://www.eastwoodco.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=10014+Z&I1.x=28&I1.y=36

    I think the steering wheel should be wood, but there may have been a change in the middle of the 2+2 run, since the 365 GTC/4 has a leather wheel. You might try "Leatherique" products on yours to see if that rejuvenates the leather. www.leatherique.com
     

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