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4 wheel steering

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by 96impalaSS, Jan 4, 2004.

  1. 96impalaSS

    96impalaSS F1 Rookie

    Dec 8, 2003
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    i was just reading a article in a older Racecar Enginering magazine and it was talking about how Benetton was teh only F1 constructor to ever race with 4WS and then it was banned after jsut 2 races.Just wondering if anybody has ever thought about how much more advanced F1 would be right now if active systems wouldve been allowed to stay.Or if anybody thinks it would be even less of a drivers sport today.
     
  2. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
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    I think it would be less of a drivers sport myself if all of the active systems stayed in place today.

    the one thing i liked about watching all of the 93 races on Speed this year was the difference in suspension movement between the active cars and the stiff non moving suspension systems of today. I am sure the cars are much more of a handful to drive today since there can be changes to the ride heights of the car over bumps. One thing that i liked about the old active was the fact that they could raise the nose and lower the back end to trim drag off of the car on fast straights.

    I would like to see a return to active suspension but no traction control, less aero devices, launch control Etc.
     
  3. 96impalaSS

    96impalaSS F1 Rookie

    Dec 8, 2003
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    definatly traction control should be a no. and also the same thing with how some drivers choose to not even shift and jsut have a fully automatic car that does it at the right times for htem.racing should become more driver and less car
     
  4. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

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    If you ever really want to see what "creative" minds can do to a rule book check out the ol Ken Terrell history 6 wheels are better or the first Lotus with active suspentinon or the book on my desk right now is CAN AM the Chaparral years Jim Hall Racing inovations.... They are opening a museam to Mr Hall's aerodynamics in March, gotta be there.
     
  5. 96impalaSS

    96impalaSS F1 Rookie

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  6. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    That is what racing is all about. finding weak areas or grey areas in the rule book and take advantage of them. This is what Michelin did this year with tires just 1mm under the max width. Michelin knew that the FIA would not check the tires after they have been put onto the track. The end result was tires that wore quickly and then got wider. This was not against the rules until someone protested.
     
  7. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
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    I knew that some transmission systems were fully automatic, is ferrari's F2003GA? Or does schumi shift when he wants?
     
  8. 96impalaSS

    96impalaSS F1 Rookie

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    no idea on that one schumis a good enough driver i would think that he wouldnt have to use it but if it help him win im sure he would
     
  9. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Most of the top teams have over rides for the fully auto function of the transmissions. The reason being is that you would not want the transmission to down shift so soon in the rain as it might allow for loss of control is to much power is sent to the rear wheels. Also if there is a possibility that there is a engine problem the driver can short shift the car to save the engine.

    F1 drivers have so many controls and options it makes most video games seem elementry.
     
  10. TimN88

    TimN88 F1 Veteran

    Jun 12, 2001
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    4WS is cool and may have made the sport be more advanced, but just think if moveable aerodynamic devices and certain types of underbodies werent banned. Cars would be too fast around corners for most humans to drive them, sort of like the imsa cars back in the 80s and early 90s that produceed over 10,000lbs of downforce. If you added a fan to the back to suck the air out from the bottom, who knows what could have been achieved.
     
  11. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
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    I don't see how you can make that statement; i.e., ingenuity in the rules, and then also make this comment "I think it would be less of a drivers sport myself if all of the active systems stayed in place today."
    Either you're someone who believes that "F1 should be a sport, not a technical excercise," or you're someone that believes in pushing the envelope, but you can't really be both.
    Benetton had a 4WS car, but never got to fully develop it, as it was banned shortly after. Also, I don't understand how some of you can "accpet" active sus and aero use, but grumble about traction control? Active aero and sus made a much, much great impact on the drivability of the car than TC has, and the fact that both of those tools are now banned, leads teams to more aptly develop "static" means of keeping the car planted; if the cars are "easier" to drive today, it's only b/c we're begining to enter the upper echelons of development -- it's not that they've been nuttered, per se.
    About the "auto" tranny's; they're not fully auto. Only the upshifts are auto, downshifts are still controlled by the driver, this is done to optimize shift points, but manual control of redline, etc are still up to the driver discrection.
    One last point -- in the most recent F1 mag, there was a blurb on the "ultimate F1 car" a design by williams of a 6 wheeled racer that would have fully automated everything, etc and would be capable of pulling ~ 8g's in corners; at that point, the human body can't cope and it finally becomes a "technical excercise."
     
  12. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Hubert;

    A couple of things to address here first i myself have been know to find loop holes or grey areas in the rule book when i raced motcross and jet ski's this is the nature of racing. Active suspension was used because the rules did not state in plain terms that it was forbidden. Same with a lot of other items I.E. sliding skirts, Super toxic Race fuels... Etc.. I was simply a fact that the teams saw an opening and went for it. This is human nature.

    I myself do not care for Traction control, Launch Control, The Aero packages of today. i would like to see the FIA issue spec wings and under trays for all the teams and Make specific car dimensions that will prevent teams from making a car smaller than the rest. One other item to mix up the flow of things would be tires. Lets have several tire Mfg. in F1 but the FIA thru a drawing system deterimes at the last possible miniute what make ans sped of tire will be used that way teams will have to adapt to the tire with little time.

    If we had these changes in place each race weekend would become both a driver and engineering challenge.

    About the Transmissions on Down shifts they can be fully auto or driver controlled watch some times a driver going into a corner. They will hit a button on the wheel and the car will down shift to a preselected gear. Other times the driver will just select each down shift going into a corner.
     
  13. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
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    That's my point. If you're in favor, or if you allow for bending of the rules, then you have to come to accept that such bending will involve electronics and technological advancement. On one end of the spectrum F1 is what it is because it has developed, contributed to and devised some of the most beautiful engineering in history; however, that's the case because it's been allowed to flourish, and that's why it is the premiere league of racing, bar none.

    Simply put, for all of the people malcontent with the state of F1, and who are looking for a spec series to follow, there's plenty to choose from. In my opinion, however, F1 should not be one of them.
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    I do not recall Benetton producing a 4WS'ing car, but I do recall that they ran a car with a simple differential that linked the front wheels in the hope of evening up the braking efforts and thus getting the maximum out of the braking force.

    This apparently did not offer any gains on track as they dropped it.

    F1 needs to keep the technology interest otherwise it becomes just another race series ...

    Pete
     
  15. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
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    Schumi was developing the car, but I don't think it saw any race action as the technology was banned before they could equal 2WD lap times with the 4WD lap times; that said, schumi did say that the car was quicker -- to his senses. I'll dig up the F1 mag, and give you guys the cite.
     
  16. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Pete dig up a copy of Racecar Engineering nov 2002. They have a article about the 4WS benetton. It did run in 2 races. If you cannot find a copy PM myself and i will scan the article and e-mail to your self.

    Rob
     

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