News

412 Rims

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by ItalianStalllion, Feb 17, 2008.

  1. ItalianStalllion

    Apr 10, 2007
    5
    Back some time ago their were threads regarding individuals who had custom made wheels fabricated with the correct offset for modern tires. One of the threads had a member with beautifully made wheels for a 412, I believe it was in the southeast. They were very similar in appearance to the OE pentagram wheels on the 412. Any information regarding the manufacturer would be appreciated.
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    #2 Pcar928fan, Feb 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    That would be cool! I think someone said you can fit a 328 wheel to a 400 and those are "normal" size... I think the 400 would benefit from being lowered just a touch (1.5" or so) and have some slightly more modern and aggressive wheels put on it. Might bring the look up to a more modern standard without ruining the overall feel and appeal of the car. YMMV! ;-) Fire suit on!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,077
    Central NJ
    That's cheating...noone's going to flame you after seeing the picture of you sitting in the chair :D

    We need a shot of you with the race suit but sitting behind the wheel - then you can be fair game ;)

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  5. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    LOL! I don't think I have one of those...well, not where you can actually see me anyway. Next time I am at the track I'll get someone to take a shot of me w/ the door open!

    James
     
  6. Tifosi66

    Tifosi66 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2004
    1,776
    Jiang Jia Jie
    Full Name:
    Li-Ge
    Aleventhal(sp?) in NY managed to fit 308/328 16" wheels to his 400. He did encounter spigot hole problems IIRC but it went fine. Tyre size have to be different though than the 205/225 on the 16" hoops, larger front and back to suit the 400/412 original diameters.

    For custom applications via the 3-piece modular method that has the Ferrari starfish pattern, try checking on Compomotive UK. IIRC the pattern in question is Modular TS. You have choices on diameter and width with the proper offsets. Another british outfit is Image UK but the Compomotives look best, ala the F40 ones...

    Edit : For Compomotive UK : www.comp.co.uk
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 23, 2006
    11,065
    GMT -5 & GMT +1
    Full Name:
    Dave
    400 wheels and 412 wheels are not the same
     
  9. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    653
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    Dave is correct - 412 wheels are NOT the same as 400i wheels. 412 wheels use the "ABS" offset, and it is my understanding (although I have NOT verified this myself) that any of the other ABS wheels will bolt right on: Mondial 3.2/T, 348, 355, 360.

    Hope this helps.

    A
     
  10. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    I can absolutely confirm Dave and Alex's posts above and thanks to Alex for a post in which he pointed out this subtle distinction concerning the 412 accepting the standard sizes (non-metric ((TRX)) wheels from the newer, ABS wheeled models such as the Mondial 3.2, Mondial T, 348, 355, and 360. Because I was faced with replacing my TRX tires and/or wheels on my '87 412 (69965 attention Dave) I was particulary motivated to investigate any and all alternatives. My first thought was to try to find a set of rims from a Mondial 3.2 or Mondial T which both came with non-TRX 16" rims in the style that match the OE rims of the 412. (Here I should mention that both Mondial 8's and Mondial QV's are no help as they had TRX's and 390's to boot.) The rims from a 3.2 or a T are probably the perfect solution (16" and correct design) for a 412 with the only minor difference being that the front rims are 7J (7 inch) and the rears are 8J (8 inch) which I suspect would be no great impediment for most drivers except that it would not be truly correct (7J front and rear) for Concours, etc. I don't know the differences in offsets, but I suspect that they are minimal, at least on the fronts, and are probably useable though you may need new (longer)lug bolts or even a small spacer on the rears. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I couldn't find such a set last month, but in what I consider to be a stroke of luck, I stumbled upon a set of near-perfect 348 OE rims, complete with Z-rated tires at a give away price so I decided I'd check them out and see if they will work. All of the wheels mentioned have the correct bolt pattern (5 X 108) but the 348, 355, and 360 rims are newer styles (subject to issues of taste) and, like the Mondial rims, have wider rear rims than fronts. The 348's had 7.5J fronts and 9J rears with 17" rims and both the 355's and 360's had 7.5J fronts and 10J rears with 18" rims. Again, I can't speak to the offsets of the 355 or 360 rims, but here is what I found with the 348 rims. I found that the 412 lug bolts are too short to even reach the brake rotor and careful measurements indicated 56 or 57 mm lug bolts would be required to get the same number of threads engaged as the stock lug bolts. I bought 20 new lug bolts 60 mm and they work fine on the fronts. When I put the 9 inch rear rims on they hit the rear suspension big time and it took a 25 mm spacer to move the 9" wide rim out far enough to get about 5 mm clearance at the closest point. I think a 30 mm spacer would be better, but the Tech adviser at the local Wheel Tec says that the clearance I have is enough. One important point is that I used the spacers that bolt to the holes in your existing brake housing with special short recessed lug bolts and then your rims bolt to the spacers using the "original" lug bolts. Since I needed 56 mm lug bolts I ordered 60 mm bolts so when I installed the 25 mm spacers I had to shorten the new lug bolts on the rears by 3-4 mm to prevent them from "bottoming out" in the 25 mm spacers when I mounted the rear rims. I think 55 mm lug bolts front and rear would work fine. If a 30 mm spacer is used however, stay with 60 mm bolts front and rear. I personally like the results and will attach photos tomorrow of before and after so you can take your best shots. :>) The "before" tires are 245/55 X 415 and the new fronts are 215/50 X 17 and the new rears are 225/50 X 17. I'm aware of the difference in diameter I've introduced and the resulting speedometer error of about 3 per cent, but I can live with that. As for using the 355 or 360 rims @ 18" dia rims with 10" wide rears, I'd be a little leery on a 412 as there's not a whole lot of space left in that rear wheel well. My thanks again to Alex for putting me onto what worked out quite well (for me at least and hopefully other 412 owners). I'm sorry it won't be an option for 400 and 400i owners.
     
  11. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
    4,040
    Seattle, WA
    Full Name:
    Brian White
    Holy lack of paragraphs and carriage returns Batman!
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. Zogman

    Zogman Rookie

    Feb 13, 2008
    14
    Mission Viejo, CA
    ok folks, I don't mean to be a smart ass, but ...... what's going on here???? I think you are going bout this the wrong way. First of all, I don't own an F-car yet. Hopefully test driving a 83 auto 400i and a 83 5 speed 400i tomorrow if it don't rain here in So Cal. I am an american muscle guy into mercury cougars. I was way bored with what guys were doing with their cougars in regards to wheels. Same thing here..... why grab some wheels off of another type of F-car to put on your unique 400 or 412.

    Here is the deal, you all know your bolt pattern... don't you? You have your stock wheels on your car I imagine and you want to bling it out to a certain extent.

    Pull one of your wheels off of your car. Measure from the base of the wheel that hits the rotor to the inside lip of the rim. Lets just say that the 400i comes with a 7" wide wheel and the measurement from the inside hub to the inside of the rim is 4". That means your backspacing is 4".

    Now, find out the outside diameter of the stock tire. I went to tirerack.com to get measurements of my stock tires. Not sure if they have measurements of TRX tires but you can do the homework!!!

    Lets just take a 255-55-16 as your stock tire. Overall diameter for that tire is 26". And lets just say that you want to take up another inch of the wheel well up since 26" is just a bit small. Now you want to go bigger than your stock 16" rim. So we are going to go +2 to 18". You don't want to go to 20" cuz we are not about to pimp out a nice itallian stallion.

    So now with the rims back on the car and the car on jacks, get under the car and measure your arse off. See how much wider you can go on the rim on the inside before you hit any suspension parts. keep in mind as you go wider, the tire will also get wider. On my Cougar, the rims were 5.5" wide, I measured that I could go another 3" wider on the rear on the inside. I also had another 1" play on the outside of the rim to play with to the inside of the rear fender. That tells me that I can go to a 9.5" wheel, Since I had a 2" backspacing on the original rims, I just added 3" to that measurement and now I know I can go with a 18" wheel with 5" of backspacing and it being 9.5" wide wheel.

    OK, now lets go to tire size. My original tire was 26" tall and now I want a 27" tall tire on a 18" rim. I go to tire-rack.com and dick around with various tire mnfg and sizes. One of the Bridgestone potenza REO50 RFt sizes is the 285ZR40-18. Overall diameter is 27.1" wide and the tire will fit rims 9.5 to 11" wide rims. Bada boom bada bing, your in.

    Now you need to find the rim that YOU think will be the MAC DADDY on your 400i and see if the mnfg will make a 18" x 9.5" rim with a 5 on 108mm bolt pattern with a 5" backspacing.

    Oh, and that was the measurements for just the rears... you have to do the same with the fronts!!!!

    I sincerley hope I didn't insult anyone with my explanation but it really is just math folks. Don't settle on 328 or any other Fcar rim just cuz they'll fit. Go with what you think will set these cool cars off.

    I did it with my Cougar and I can't tell you how many compliments I get from other Cougarfiles... and others too!!!

    And if I end up buying one of these cars, I'll do the math and put a *****en set of rollers on it!!!!

    Cheers

    Z

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    Yea, I could hardly follow that post! My eyes crossed a few times...
     
  15. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    To me it comes down at least as much to cost on this sort of thing. How LITTLE can you actually get that spec wheel built for??? I am not sure, but I suspect if you did your homework you would be able to get them for a car close to the cost of a set of original Ferrari wheels. Then you have nicer looking wheels (no offense, but old F-car wheels are not all that attractive, neither are P-car wheels for that matter) not to mention easier wheels to get tires for.

    YMMV!

    James
     
  16. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    #13 Bradm, Feb 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    OK, I sincerely apologize for the lack of paragraphs, etc. in my marathon post of last night. I will try to be more considerate in the future. My old brain doesn't work as well after midnight as it once did.

    Here some "Before" and "After" photos of the car as well as close ups of the stock 412 TRX wheel and the (stock) 348 wheel.

    The math that motivated me was the $2130, plus shipping, plus mounting for each set of new tires. By using the 348 rims I saved $1500 on this set and will save at least that much on each set of tires from now on. Of course I kept the original wheels and TRX tires for shows and the next owner.

    I just wanted the 412 owners to know that they have a few more alternatives than the 400 and 400i guys, but there are still things to be aware of.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    Much prefer the new style to the old 400/412 rims. That said, I prefer the 360 star (that is what they look like to me anyway, not sure what they are actually called) rims best and I bet they would look GREAT on a 400. Looking at your pics, can you lower the front of a 400/412? The rear looks great, but it looks like lowering the front about 1.5" would again really update the look. That is one of the things I like about the 928's. You can lower any corner on them to get just the look you want. Of course you have to go in and re-align the car, but at least you can do it easily enough. Not to mention they came off the showrooms looking pretty "right" on the ride height front anyway.

    I would love to see a few more pics of other folks 400/412 with non-stock rims installed and hear/read any of the trails that went along with it. Also love to hear of pitfalls to watch out for.

    James
     
  18. Zogman

    Zogman Rookie

    Feb 13, 2008
    14
    Mission Viejo, CA
    Dude, you hit the nail on the head. Funny, looking at your name... I am looking at 400i's and 928's for my next car. I drove a 5 speed 400i today and loved it. I can't wait to drive a 5 speed 928 GT or GTS to help me with my decision.

    And yes, drop the front end of the 412 or the $1000 you saved goes for naught!!
     
  19. Zogman

    Zogman Rookie

    Feb 13, 2008
    14
    Mission Viejo, CA
    I don't know how people here take criticism but I prefer to be honest and not blow smoke. You want to bag on me...bring it. I'm good with criticism.

    In looking at the 412 with the new rims rims & tires... somebody messed up big time. Yahup, sorry, the pooch was done in on those tires. When a manufacturer specs out a rim & tire for their car, they take a look at wheel wells and openings and pick the best combo to fill out the gap. In my previous post, I mentioned that if you do go with larger rims, you need to measure the O.D of the original tire and make sure that the new tire has the same approximate OD. People are so excited that the go up 1 or 2 sizes on the rim that they end up getting rubber bands for tires and they are short 1 or 2 inches on OD. If you like it.. fantastic for you!!! Me, I don't get it.......
     
  20. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    I don't think anyone on the 400 list will bag on you for your thoughts and opinions on what you like. That is for you to enjoy and express. Just because you or someone else likes something or doesn't does not make you or it any better than anyone else or worse...

    I agree that much of the +X sizing on tires has gone WAY to far. It depends on what you like though. I like a more modern wheel and would LOVE to see something like that on a 400...like the 348 wheels. Also, in this case, if you are going to do that you will get the benefit of being able to get just about any tires you want vs. the current situation where you are between a rock and a hard place. The 400 does not lend itself to +2 or more on the wheel tire package, just because it was not designed as sports car. It was designed to be comfortable and when you start +ing your rim/tire package that goes right out the window!

    Personally I think the car would still look and ride pretty well with up to 18" rims. I think that would be outside though. 18" might even be to harsh for the 400. 17" would probably be perfect, but in time we could be seeing a shortage of 17" tires too. Just look how quickly the tires have grown larger. Can you even GET a 17" wheel on ANY sportscar anymore? Maybe a base Boxster, but I bet you would not find one at a dealership lot that had 17"'s on it.

    I would love to see some nice Fikse, Kinesis, or HRE's in various sizes (17" and 18") on a 400. Something to fill out the wheel well a bit maybe too. Then lower the nose just a touch... I am a personal fan of the 5 spoke designs (like the 360 wheel or the '04 911 wheel).

    YMMV!
    James
    Austin, TX
     
  21. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    Are you looking at one or the other, or just trying to find the right one of EACH?

    To be fair I have neither ridden in nor driven a 400/412, so I won't speak to that experience other than to say it sounds like parts are quite rare and quite expensive. That is NOT the case with 928's. You could have ANY PART you want on your door step in 24 hours or less! You can buy most of them new and ALL of them used if you like from at least 6 different suppliers and probably more than that! If the car has electrical gremlins then run away from it. You will NEVER get them sorted out! There are plenty of them (though not so many of what you are looking at GT/GTS's) out there so find a good one!

    They are fast, smooth, comfortable, and can totally hound Boxsters and 911's on the race track depending on who all the drivers are. They are also big, heavy, and not very frugal on natural resources. Get a Rear Muffler Bypass (RMB for short) and enjoy the music of the V8. That removes the last section of muffler, costs about $225 (for the most expensive polished version...take that Ferrari 400 exhaust fans!), and can be installed in about 15 minutes! We did a drive yesterday w/ the Hill Country Region of the PCA and there were about 25 cars and I had the only 928 there. We did about 200 miles I guess and man you just can't beat the car! I took my '92 Euso S with sport suspension, which I think is just about the right compromise between comfort and sport. I find the 996TT's (and maybe all the Turbos) to be a bit stiff for regular road stuff, and this is just a touch below. That said, the normal 928 suspension settings are to soft by a pretty good portion.

    I also think the 928 (all of them but in particular the '87 and up cars) have aged quite well. The GTS's are of course the top of the top and since only 422 were ever imported (well 423 if you count my '92) they are quite rare and also tend to be about 2X or more the cost of a like for like S4. I would NOT buy a '90/'91 GT if I were you. I can't tell you how many I have seen blow their motors just from doing auto-X and DE's! I have no idea what is going on with them, but probably 50% of the GT's I know of have lunched AT LEAST one motor! I have NEVER seen an S5 5spd or a GTS 5spd do that... The automatics don't seem to have ANY problems like that. Steering racks on the 87-89 S4's are an issue, they go out with alarming regularity, but in the early stages just keep topping them up and cleaning up the garage floor. Usually see some oil leakage near the top back of the motor, pretty common and I have never seen anyone worry to much about it.

    Anyway, sorry to hi-jack the thread guys. PM me or give me a call and I'll tell you all I can about 928's. I just love'em!

    James
    Austin, TX
     
  22. Bradm

    Bradm Rookie

    Dec 1, 2007
    30
    Tampa. FL
    Just a minor point relative to the photo of the 412 with the 348 wheels and the suggestion that the front needs to be lowered 1.5". The car is sitting in my back yard which is sloped upward from left to right so, due to my minimal photography skills, the car appears "tilted" with a nose high attitude of at least 1.5 to 2.5".

    As to the tendency to up-size the rims while lowering the profile, I agree that I am not a fan of that trend, and firmly believe that the suspension and ride, in general, is probably best when maintained as the designer/mfg. originally intended. I would not be so presumptuous as to try to out-Ferrari Ferrari. Had the Mondial 16" wheels been available, I probably would have gone that route with the original 55 profile. Unfortunately, they were not, so I chose a compromise I could live with.

    One downside not previously noted about the 348 wheels is that they are handed, so the rims have to stay on the corner they start out on.

    As to the 355 or 360 rims on a 412, I don't object to the styles of the rims, but, as I mentioned earlier, they are both, I believe, available only in 18" (which entails even lower profile tires) and more importantly, the rears are 10" wide, which I doubt can be fitted successfully (without modifying rear wheel wells). If any 412 owners have successfuly mounted 10" rears I'd love to hear about it and see some photos!
     
  23. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    Brad, I think I made this comment. I was not looking so much at the nose point up as the gap between the top of the tire and the fender. I just prefer to see less gap than that. Just a personal preference for me.

    I agree, that 18" wheels would probably be over the top on a 400/412. I think 17" would be pretty right on, but I am concerned about long term tire availability in styles that would suit the Ferrari.

    James
     
  24. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 6, 2004
    2,742
    Schmecklestan
    Full Name:
    Mark
    #21 markcF355, Mar 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  25. Pcar928fan

    Pcar928fan Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2008
    1,685
    Austin, TX
    LOVE IT! Where did you get those spacers and do they have them/can they be made for 400's? Might be easier and cheaper than trying to have a custom wheel set built for the car!

    James
     
  26. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 6, 2004
    2,742
    Schmecklestan
    Full Name:
    Mark
    There on a 400. I don't remember who made them. I'll look for their name tomorrow.
     
  27. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
    Moderator Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    5,930
    AU
    Full Name:
    Michael
    #24 wrxmike, Mar 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  28. Tifosi66

    Tifosi66 Formula 3

    Nov 30, 2004
    1,776
    Jiang Jia Jie
    Full Name:
    Li-Ge
    512TR wheels. Nice.:)
     

Share This Page