430 vs 599

I own a 599 and absolutely love the car. I let my neighbor take it for a ride one day. He is a retired GM executive. He has owned many hot rods. One was a Boyd Coddington car. On the ride he hit the gas and shifted using the paddle sifters. I looked at him and he had a grin on his face and was chuckling like a gleeful child. All of the people who I have let drive the 599 have had a similar response.

When I purchased the 599 I was disappointed that I could not find a car with a manual transmission. I know that this opinion would be considered blasphemous on Ferrari Chat, but it wasn't until I had purchased and driven a 512 BB that I came to believe that the 599 was built for the F1 superfast transmission. I believe that I would be unable take full advantage of the power of the 599 with a manual transmission. To receive the full effect of the 599's technology I feel I need the F1 superfast transmission. I love driving the 512. My son and my son-in-law have a going argument as to who will inherit which Ferrari. The loser gets the 599. Of the two the 512 is my favorite car, but I believe the 599 driving experience is enhanced with the addition of the F1 superfast transmission.

I know that some believe that there are better Ferraris than the two that I own, but I could not be happier with the diversity of the experience I get from the two Ferraris that I own. Although I would most likely trade the two for a 275 gtb4 and an F12 Berlinetta, I am very happy with the two cars I am blessed to be the caretaker of the two. These car will stay in my family for generations.

In closing I love the 599. It is unlike anything I have ever driven.

 

I've driven them both, more or less back to back, on the same back roads near the Valencia race track in Spain. (430 spider, 599 with handling package)

Riding in the passenger seat was an instructor, supplied by the Spanish Ferrari importer, encouraging me to go all-out on that 80 kph road (translating to around 240 kph)

The pace of the 599 in my hands, on a road that I didn't know, was roughly 20-30 kph faster than in the 430. Yet, I loved the 430 a LOT more. It was more transparent. Letting me know what was going on under the wheels. Where the grip was to be had, and where to back off. A bump was a bump and a pothole was a pothole.

The 599 would filter a lot of that away (in comparison). It was blistering fast and very VERY capable, but I felt much more like a passenger than I did in the 430. Which at those speeds can give somewhat of an uneasy feel.

Mind you, my own ride is a highly modified 308GT4 that communicates to me through a megaphone. I guess it's all about what you're used to and how you're driving it.

 

Eric, welcome to Fchat.

 

"I was not serious about the Hurican but wanted to keep an open mind until I looked over the car. In 5 minutes I made the decision to buy a 2012- 2013 Aventador. I won't go into why it is infinitely better than 599 because that is cruel and that was not my purpose in posting initially. This just got out of hand."


Fine, gald we got that sorted; a 2012 - 2013 super car that costs about 3 times the cost of the 599 (and is far newer) than the car the OP was saving up for* is "infinitley better" in the opinion of a CLS driver.
Phew !

Time to go to the F12 section, they eat shouty flat Audi's for breakfast over there.l

 

Never mind.

 

Lots of great input here.

Hans you are right. The 430 is more direct about what it's doing. On the road its probably dangerous to really dig into the 599. However, if you are on a track and you can really get the car settled down on its suspension, you can get tremendous feel for the car. And having that experience means when you are back on the public roads you then know whats going on.

I love the 599 because its comfortable and also very nimble and fast for a car of its size. Also the sound is fantastic and there is nothing like a Ferrari V12 and this is one of the finest V12s they must have ever made. It revs so smoothly and so quickly (more and smaller pistons vs the V8s?).

599 v 430 really is like we've all said before, one is more GT one is more sports car. If you are looking for a car to drive in short trips and want to get a feel of "wow thats a sports car" then you go for the 430. If you want a car that you can still enjoy on short blasts but really get into a zone with over a longer ride, then thats the 599. The best option of course is to have both.

The real weakness for the 599 is the ride on very choppy roads and also the rear grip isn't that great in anything besides smooth roads and warm temps. Both are resolved by switching the tires to MPSS. These first appeared on the GTBs meaner cousin the GTO. These tires perform a miracle of making the car feel more nimble, yet rides more comfortably, and also gives much better grip.

Aventador- thats a nice car and I congratulate you. I see that more as a car to compete with the likes of F12 because of the generation it comes from. Its a very cool car and no doubt the AWD = much easier to deploy the power.

For me these are my fun cars for nice weather so I usually skip AWD. Maybe one day I might have a look at the FF redesign. If they make it look much better I could see it.

 

I didn't come here to argue with people I do not consider knowledgeable any longer.

I was trying to be helpful to the OP who is "saving up" for a 599 and voiced my opinion after having read all the glorious praise for the 599 here (and other places) that I had concluded in person upon inspection the 599 was a piece of unreliable crap. Your own posts confirm that!

After I realized I had been conned perhaps I over reacted. I apologize. But my point is I have a DD that weighs 4400 pounds and came in right behind the "legendary" 575 on the Top Gear tote board. I consider that a fair representation- they use the same track with the same driver (the Stig). If that doesn't make sense to you what's the point? My AMG is not a sports car! It cost me $95k in '06- not over $350k like the 599.

When I went looking for a sports car I assumed the 599 would deliver as advertised. Both cars were in so-called excellent shape for a Ferrari -one with 8k miles the other 16k [new cars]. I expect in MY world when I spend my hard earned money to get value. What the hell does income have to do with being duped?

Rotting radiators, leaking shocks, ball joints failing in relatively low mileage is not value. It's indicative of poor quality and even poorer design. If the car doesn't ride like a GT car it's not worth the grief. Terry (with the 575) bemoaned all the time that Ferrari never fixed known faults.

My AMG has 123k miles and is driven hard, believe me, with none of the above faults and yet it can stay with a 575 on the track. What is wrong with that picture?

GO to Top Gear and look at the 2 videos of my car and the 575. Brace yourself for the leaning POS 575... my car does not lean in that video because it has huge SWAY bars (not tie rod ends Mr. Z06) and the air struts transfer air to the side needing it and the seats automatically inflate to bolster you and keep you in place under heavy g's.

Now that all Ferraris are out of consideration for me I am buying a 2013 Aventador with NO leaking shocks-(it has formula one inboard shocks for example). It has an entirely new V12 designed by Germans, who I can attest, know how to build V12 engines. I logged over 350k miles on 2 BMW V12's. Beat the piss out of them really.

I could go on but the car is so beautiful inside and out, it sold me in 5 minutes and doesn't ride any harsher than 599. YES, it is $350k- so what! I told you money is not a consideration. That's why I mentioned it previously- not to brag to people I don't know. This car delivers in spades.

I pointed out the lesser car, the Hurican (sp) has a video of a 194 mph crash where both walked away- enough said for me. VALUE... Aventador has a carbon fiber tub etc like the ugly McLaren but infinitely safe like Formula One cars who break away like the Aventador is designed to do in a crash.

And yes, I do have an automotive background. I used to build custom sports cars from the ground up and learned vehicle dynamics from none other than Colin Chapman [Lotus] and Dave McClellan. [Dave gave me a set of Stainless Steel take apart shocks the engineers used for the C5 for my 427]. I built a custom sports car chassis with a Pontiac 389 c.i. engine with Tripower before I had a driver's license. I've stuffed 351 Cleveland V8's[Ford] in sports cars you wouldn't believe. I once dropped a Chrysler 340 in an Austin Healey 3000. I lost count how many Jag rear ends I installed in people's solid axle cars. So I do know a thing or three about chassis design and also high performance engine building courtesy of Penske Racing who used to be in Reading PA (when I was younger and took advantage of a young person eager to learn) from the likes of Mark Donahue, who incidentally showed me how to make a 1972 Camaro Rally Sport with a BB Chevy 427 out handle Turbo Porsches on back country roads.

I used to eat and sleep high performance sports cars until a drunk driver rear ended me @ 70mph and I had to change careers- I am now one of the largest (although semi-retired) derivatives traders in USA and London, but still very much into cars which is why, although I didn't own a Ferrari I still came to this site occasionally.

Unlike Arnold, "I won't be back" as I'm familiarizing myself on the nuances of the Aventador. I assure you it doesn't need an HGTE package as an after thought to handle. [BTW, the only thing I agree with about that package is the larger rear roll bar. 17% stiffer springs and shock settings will make it ride more "truck" like].

See ya...

 

FX- If you are trying to chap off the max number of people using the most words possible, you are succeeding admirably. As far as helping the OP, FAIL. You are quoting me on things I never said, like Ferrari failing to address known issues. Anybody that knows anything about Maranellos understands the 575M addressed most of the 550's known issues. Anybody that gets their car info from that carnival Top Gear does not have a clue. No cooling issues with 575s, no leaking shocks, which are bullet-proof Mannesmann-Sachs, etc, etc.

Stop beating your own drum. You have already lost all credibility and when you are in a hole, stop digging.

 

I use F12 as DD and ride is pretty harsh. You are not going to like it based on what you said about the 599 ride.

 

PS I have over 100,000 km on my stick shift 575 m and have never had an issue

 

You will not be missed. Let's see if you change your login and try it again....

 

Thanks for the welcome Piper! Actually, FX is right about my reference to tie rods in lieu of sway bars. One too many Woodfords will do that and prompted my response. Anyway, onward and upward!

 

Good point Terry.

Eric, welcome.

here is a video I've enjoyed over the years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfuLqZ9ZkLs

 

Interesting discussion. One considering a 430 vs a 599 should get the 430. Its easier to drive, less expensive, and a good starter Ferrari. Move up to the 599 after a year.

 

Really? How come? Does it also not handle bumps any better than the 599? Its all the road undulations that I wish the 599 could better handle- however, the switch to the MPSS tires really helped quell this issue. Its still there but much better. It doesn't stop me from enjoying the 599 on an almost daily driver basis when the weather abates. It seems you like the F12 as a DD? Have you driven the 599? I'd love to hear your comparison between the two. I am fascinated by the F12.

 

PS, FX- I've never had a serious mechanical problem with any of the many Ferrari's I've owned (9 and looking for more!). I don't know where you are getting your data but I can tell you my 599 has been reliable and basically trouble free.

I think what you are not understanding is its not just about performance data. If it were I could blow your Merc away with a Corvette or a Nissan GTR. For a fraction of the price. And I could say- how could Mercedes justify that? And who would buy that?

But clearly you have a passion for Mercedes and thats fine.

That's the difference when you find something that captures your imagination. It seems to me Ferrari has not managed that and you've not seen that Ferrari is different. That's OK. It's not going to be for everyone. But please realize, these cars are not all problems. If they were nothing but bad engineering and headaches, then there would be no Ferrari chat and Ferrari wouldn't be selling cars with great success for all these years.

 

Comparing 2007 F430's to 2007 599's, they both start in the $140k's. In terms of value, holy hell, there's probably $30k more leather in the 599, 12cyl instead of 8cyl, and just me personally, I find the 599 easier to drive. Though I freely admit I'm not much of a driver, only been on a track three times. Just coming from the American muscle roots that I do, I guess the 599 feels and pulls more like a vette to me which is familiar. The 360 and F430 were OTOH very new to me and took some getting used to. Approaching 50, I enjoy a GT more now. But getting back to price, they're actually about the same, at least for MY 2007.

 

I actually liked my F430 more than the 599. More sports car, less GT. YMMV

 

Jim- Tastes vary and it depends on what you want. Same reason some opt for a Z06 Corvette with three pedals and others for a Corvette convertible with automatic.

 

Terry: I visited to see if you would respond and then I do not wish to keep offending an obviously biased group ( of course). Number one I didn't buy a 575 because of the comments that YOU made years ago concluding Ferrari was a bad manufacturer.

Number two, I believe you are deliberately twisting my words or you're not that bright (although you are good at research of F cars) because I was referring to the FAULTS of the 599 [rotting radiator, leaking shocks, etc, etc] NOT the 575 because I read your comment about the bulletproof 575 shocks and your dismay that Ferrari switched to an unreliable manufacturer. FYI: I was involved minimally in the sale of Delphi some years back (the F shock manufacturer) to a 3 letter conglomerate [BWI Group] who now makes parts in CHINA- perhaps the 599 shocks are coming from China? Oh look, my Ferrari has Chinese shocks @ $6k a pop.

Number three, if you don't think the test of the various cars on the SAME track by the SAME Formula One driver (Weber and before him Schumacher) is a fair test, you need your head examined right now. The fact that those British twits are annoying has nothing to do with facts. I agree with Jeremy that the 599 is full of design faults, that my AMG is made by MB who dropped the ball on quality DELIBERATELY although my car has 123k miles with no problems with the drive train, has the original air struts, radiator with original coolant, etc, that the Aston Martin DBS is not worth it over the DB9 and many more facts he has espoused. That in itself indicates you are not knowledgeable about cars in general.

Number four, do you consider your 575 to be a well designed quality sports car if my '06 Mercedes Benz CLS 55 AMG with a hundred less horsepower, riding on air struts for a smooth ride, weighing many hundreds of pounds more with a back seat is only ONE TENTH OF A SECOND slower around the track than your "sports car"? [Ferrari 575 Maranello GTC is 1:26.8 and my AMG is 1:26.9}... Is that value?

Number five, Ferrari "cheats" by using a 4.18 rear axle ratio while the AMG uses a 2.65 cruising ratio. The reason I say cheats is they are compensating for poor design by using too high an axle ratio because, even with a 6 speed transmission (my car has a 5 speed automatic slush box for heaven's sake), your car does zero to 60 in 4.2 verses my 4.5 seconds. What would the 0 to 60 time be on my car with a 4.11 rear?
The old Corvettes of the sixties used to routinely come with 4.11 and 4.56 rears. Ferrari needs to move into the next century like the Corvettes have done lately [but they still use those POS shocks like Ferrari copied]. The GERMAN designed Aventador has a 2.87 rear axle ratio and uses Formula One shocks- not to mention carbon fiber that Ferrari is not willing to give their customers because they consider them too stupid to either care or know the difference that they are being duped imo.

Number six, I'll stop now -it's not a fair match... No one has addressed any material facts in any meaningful way that I have proffered. Hopefully this forum is not representative of Ferrari owners in general. That would e a sad state of affairs.

As I said, see ya...

 

I misspoke about the HP difference. My AMG is 469HP not that far off the 575. I was thinking about the 599. Sorry.