458 needs brake cooling ducts

would something like this help a road car? designed for challenge/GT race cars. also would require modifying front bumper. Ferrari 458 specialists| Ferrari 458 aero kit| Ferrari 458 EVO kit

otherwise, are there Speciale or Challenge car parts that could be added to a 458, similar to how Porsches can use GT3 or Cup car brake cooling ducts?

 

I wouldn't blame the rotors so quickly as I would be more suspicious of the brake fluid. I had a similar problem at Road Atlanta once going into 10A and when I replaced the brake fluid in the pits, it went away. I would consider a better brake fluid (higher wet boiling temp) such as Castrol SRF and make sure they are bled frequently. Generally the CCM rotors like the high heat, brake fluid does not.

 

What mode were you driving in? Race mode uses the rear brakes behind the scenes and could contribute to your issues.

 

+1. Joe is dead nuts on.

Heat-related brake fade is among the last problems you should have with these brakes.

Poor bedding, boiled fluid, air caught in the ABS pump, glazed pads/rotors, etc are more likely suspects. From your symptoms, sounds like fluid. Also agree, the TCS and ESR systems can complicate things

Not sure what Joe did as a routine on his street cars (he and others can comment) but we do a simple bleed on the race car twice a day while testing, and do a full ABS bleed (which requires the VCI computer) between events.

 

Anyone that has done some serious tracking with a great brake set up will be disappointed in the 458 or Speciale breaking performance. You have to keep in mind that these breaks were designed for the street, not the track.

There are options to put steel rotors with real track worthy pads at a fraction of the cost of the CCM Ferrari brakes.

When I was tracking my Viper, we tried all sorts of different compounds for the pads and had different set ups for different tires, cambers, suspension etc.

Track rats that also drive there cars on the street are all too familiar with the normal process of putting your track pads on for the weekends and returning to street pads for the drive home.

Street pads and track pads are designed for different purposes and perform very different.

If you are driving with any of the nannies on your 458, you will be under spec weight on your rotors after 5 weekends at Sebring.

Don't expect to get the same breaking performance from your 458 street car than your purpose built track car.

All that said, you shouldn't be getting that much fade between corners.. something doesn't sound right.

 

Unfortunately this is very much the truth with these cars and really any car for that matter using a pad compound geared more towards street driving if the vehicle is actually pushed on a race track. Introduce some sticky tires and the problem only gets worse.

To the OP, we must first determine if you're experiencing fluid fade or pad fade. If the pedal simply goes to the floor than your fluid has boiled, alternatively if the pedal remains hard but the car won't slow down your pads have reached their maximum operating temperature. Ducting will absolutely help with both situations but it might not be enough.

The OEM pads are a relatively aggressive compound because they must be able to cope with the much higher temperatures generated by the CCM rotors. The rotors may be massive in size but the size doesn't really matter, it all comes down to thermal capacity so that means in the case of brake rotors we're talking about their mass in particular. A front rotor on your 458 which is 398mm x 36mm and weighs in at around 13 lbs. if I recall, a front rotor on your Cayman (S) is 317mm x 28mm and weighs in at about 20 lbs. This means the Cayman rotor has more thermal capacity so it will take longer to heat up and run at a lower temperature.

With that said one of the advantages of the CCM rotors is that they are excellent at dissipating heat very quickly so they will recover quicker than a comparable iron rotor but they have a much greater delta to cover so they always tend to run much hotter.

This brings up another interesting key point regarding the CCM rotors, due to fact that they heat up and cool down so rapidly you tend to get inconsistencies from the brakes on the race track. This is because the coefficient of friction of your brake pads is directly related to temperature so as they move back and forth through a very large range so does your friction coefficient. Iron rotors on the other hand are far better at maintaining a tighter temperature range when abused.

One option for you is to go to a more aggressive brake pad that can handle the temperatures on track. That's all well and good but you better be ready to start replacing rotors on a regular basis. Once CCM rotors reach about 1400 degrees, which is easily achievable even with the OEM pads on track, the rotors actually start to oxidize burning up the carbon in the rotor. This is why CCM rotors have a minimum mass call out instead of a minimum thickness like traditional iron rotors.

Another option as was mentioned is to swap to a set of iron rotors such as the ones that we offer. We've outfitted no less than a couple hundred 458's and 458 CH cars over the years with great success. To my knowledge we've never had a customer go back to the CCM rotors after installing ours unless it was to sell the vehicle.

Below is a picture of our rotors and race pads on a fleet of 458 CH cars, they tried them on one car and almost immediately did the other three. The first picture is after about 1000 track miles and the second pic is a cameo of pro driver Anthony Lazzaro, he drove one car back to back CCM vs. iron, guess which car he was faster in confidence in your brakes is everything!

Not trying to say iron rotors are superior to CCM rotors by any means but it's important to understand the dynamics behind them and why your experiencing what you are.

Just some food for thought, hope it helps!
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this is normal. If you get them really hot, you'll start noticing the paint peeling off the backing plates. From what you are describing, it really sounds like a hot fluid situation, assuming all other components are working properly.

Jasone's comments re "street vs. track" are absolutely correct. A big component on these cars is weight (street 458 is heavier than 458C, for example).

I'll reinforce again, with the CCM's the bedding process is more critical than people realize for ultimate stopping performance and brake feel. A lot of people also tend to not understand how to optimize their braking performance (brake pressure, modulation, etc etc).

You can certainly work with different pads (eg. use race pads). Remember, all brakes are consumables....they are supposed to wear out.

Last, on "modern" street cars (eg. Ferrari, Porsche), the street braking SYSTEM is as critical as any gaming with pads, rotors, etc. The EBD and ABS systems, as well as the TCS and ECS, are designed with street use in mind, and in some cars (eg. GT3RS, Speciale) they are dialed in towards a track bias - but none are as good as a motorsport-specific braking system and motorsport-specific ABS.

 

I put the Girodisc on my 458 Challenge and find them to brake equally to the CCM setup but admittedly I am not racing, just doing track days. They are certainly easy to swap out with the CCM system and lots of options for different compatible pads.

 

Definitely figure out what fluid is being used. I use RBF600 or RBF660 and have never had any fade with the CCMs. Although the scud is lighter. Stock pads? I use Pagid RSC1's and have never had an issue either. Have to follow the bedding process which is pretty serious though. I use an industrial park late at night before heading to the track. Pagid makes a couple of different forms of the RSC compound now as well.

Good luck!

 

You aren't going to be thrilled with the cost of replacing those rotors. If you are driving with any nannies turn on, you can expect 5 track days before they are out of spec depending on your skill and the track you are driving.

 

I know what they cost - it is substantial. Although, you don't have to go to Ferrari for replacements either:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430-sponsored-yellow-compass-group/479549-carbon-ceramic-brakes-f430-f360-2.html

Nannies only intervene if you aren't driving properly as you point out...but I drive with CT-off currently. Just had them weighed during yearly service and there is plenty of life left in them.

 

How do you reset the brake warning when they get below spec? I was told that they have to send your old rotors to Ferrari NA and the serial numbers have to match before Ferrari will issue the service dept the cancel code???

And you mention weighting them which I have heard before but service stated that there is some algorithm in the computer that calculates the wear on them and when to replace..

Not challenging what you're saying just curious if there is another way around from what I was told is all... I have contemplated switching to Iron it poses a problem putting the OEM back on with the brake warning light not being able to be reset.

One more thing I have had issues braking at Sebring as well... I replaced fluid twice with dot 4 Castrol SRF. Thought I had air in the system bled them and no air.. I found out that I burnt up the stock OEM pads.. By burnt I mean not used up but literally turned colors white/orange, cracked, and chipping off.. Paint was boiled on the back plates as describe above in the thread...

I know I should have been running a track pad but I was hoping that the OEM would have performed better than it did...

 

The best/accurate (correct?) way to monitor the rotors is by weight. That assumes you know and track the weight of each rotor (i.e. take them off, weigh on a consistent scale, etc etc). The cars all have an algorithm that "estimates" rotor wear, and alarms when you hit what the system thinks is 100%.

FWIW we've used rotors past 100%, and weighed them, and have seen variations of 10-15% in both directions.

Each rotor has a serial number, and (at least on the current gen street cars and 458C) you actually need to put the rotor serial # into the DDU (ECU). A dealer with a DEIS can reset the rotor warning, though they do have to log and submit and enter the new serial numbers. However, there are ways around this...

As for your brakes, Sebring is an abusive track on brakes for any car. Sounds like like you got some good heat in the pads. One of the (many, endless) compromises of a street vs. track/race car are brake choices. A lot of people would complain endlessly if race pads/fluid were used as standard (brakes need to be hot, fluid changed regularly, complaints about no brake action at a stop light...). The other common issue I see still is people who do not bed their brakes properly, which essentially defines braking performance for the life of the pads, and can screw up your rotors. (no, brakes are not bedded at the factory...)

Steels are a good option, there are also aftermarket ceramics.

 

Cool yea I was told someone doubled the life expectancy out of their rotors and didn't have any issues.. My real concern was resetting the warning light when the computer thinks they are out of wear...

Its not a huge issue.. I don't plan on dedicating my car to the track but just want to enjoy it few times here and there..

I saw on another post you were at Daytona last weekend.. I also got a chance and drove the gray 488 on the track.. It definitely superseded my expectations. So much louder than I thought it would be and the torque/power was absolutely amazing!

 

Are there any aftermarket solutions for a cooling duct?

 

Anyone?


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