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458 Novitec Lowering measurement help please

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Smiley, Mar 27, 2020.

  1. Smiley

    Smiley Rookie

    Dec 1, 2015
    23
    Hi

    I wonder if any of you fine people may be able to help me, I've searched the numerous threads with regards to lowering the 458, but not quite found out the info I'm after.
    I have Novitec springs that I'm going to be fitting. I'm basically looking to find out the correlation between the number of threads left visible on the shock in relation to the actual height of the car. for example if I move the collars on the shock down 10mm, will that lower the car 10mm,12mm or 20mm etc?

    I basically want to try to work out how many threads to leave visible on each shock (with the Novitec springs) and what height that will leave the car at.

    My car has the lifter so is likely higher than a non lifer car. so to remove that variable I wonder if anyone has any data that relates to ride height against number of threads visible on shock with Novitec springs (or collar height from bottom of thread)?
    To clarify what I'm calling ride height: I'm calling ride height The measurement from the centre of the front wheel directly up to the arch, which on my car is 395mm, or top of wheel to wheel arch (measurement point doesn't really matter as its all relative) To move that figure by 20mm how many mm lower will the collar need to go on the shock? The same question for the back shocks? I assume they may be different due to different shock angles and linkages etc.

    I basically wanted to try and work out how high to have the collars on the shocks with the Novitec springs to start with to avoid me having to keep adjusting them on the car, or worst case have to keep taking them off to make adjustments..

    I'm not entirely sure what ride height to aim for at the moment but if I can find out this info I think it will possibly avoid me doing unnecessary additional work.

    Any thoughts greatly received

    Thanks Miles
     
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  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
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    Steve Magnusson
    Just eyeballing this 458 diagram:

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    I would guesstimate that, if you move the collars on the shock down 10mm, that would lower the chassis by ~15mm -- as the coilover is more upright than on a 308 front (where a 10mm collar change = a 17mm chassis change), but maybe still a little less upright than on a 308 rear (where a 10mm collar change = a 14mm chassis change).
     
  4. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    Jun 9, 2004
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    Vern
    Something to remember on lowering any suspension is it will throw out the alignment (toe and camber). Ferrari is already to aggressive on the front toe specs on the 458 it is too negative for street use and wears the inside inch and half of the tire at the factory height. Lowering makes that even more extreme. There also isn't enough camber adjustment left when lowering just and inch or so. I adjusted my front toe to 0 degrees instead of the factory setting of -0.12 and a had to remove all the shims from the lower A arms to the top A arms to get the camber back to factory settings. I only lowered an inch and quarter in the front and an inch in the back. Some guys are lowering a couple of inches and that is really going to screw up the alignment.
     
  5. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    I meant to open my post with “as a side note to the op question”. I hate when we don’t stay on topic but I thought it was important to comment.
     
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  6. Smiley

    Smiley Rookie

    Dec 1, 2015
    23
    The whole alignment issues was next on my list... I knew lowering would throw things out, so I planned to have alignment done.

    I'm now stuck with being unable to find out how to DIY bleed the hydraulic factory lifter, so unless I can do that I'm probably going to have to take the car into a garage for them to do the entire job.. thanks for your comments so far
     
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  8. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    Just a heads up more than likely most alignment shops won’t know what to do unless you instruct them on the front shim problem. They will remove all the shims from lower A-arms and that won’t be enough to get the camber to factory spec. Unfortunately most alignment guys are blank fillers they won’t understand the problem unless you tell them what you want done; ie, add shims to the UPPER A-arm. Also as I stated above if you don’t want inside tire wear have them reset the factory negative toe(-0.12 degree)to .0 or just slightly positive .01
    The factory is sacrificing tire wear for slightly better steering response using the -0.12 setting, just MHO for street use I don’t think it is necessary but maybe that could subjective. If you have at least 5000 or so miles on your front tires take a look at the inside edge I would bet there is noticeable wear, anyway that adjustment is up to you. Hope that helps
     
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  9. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    #7 Llenroc, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
    On your bleeding of the front lifter Steve’s photo is great you should be able find the bleed screw easy enough. The diagram shows where the system and components location.

    edit: after checking my shop manual it states that you have to connect to the DEIS diag. tester for bleeding the system
     
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  10. Smiley

    Smiley Rookie

    Dec 1, 2015
    23
    Thanks again for your replies. my car has always seemed very twitchy, so I will definitely instruct the wheel alignment to be done correctly, and with a view for slightly less toe.

    I managed to download a factory manual from Ebay and despite being 2000 pages I managed to find the part relating to the lifter hydraulics. that's when I got stuck, noting that it states to connect to the factory DEIS system, I've no idea if I could attempt to bleed it by operating the lift button, possibly on the first lift attempt it may push some fluid out of the nipples, sufficient to bleed it, but I've no idea what will happen without trying it, and I don't want to mess anything else up in the process.

    Part of me thinks that because the car will not be moving and hence the height sensor will not be moving or the hydraulic ram on the shock will not be moving ( and hence wont top out), the hydraulic pump may just keep pumping? but what I don't want to do is end up with a whole load of new problems! I guess at worse I would probably be able to drive it to a garage that has the DEIS system and in theory just ask them to bleed/reset the hydraulic system.. but who knows..

    Thanks again
     
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  11. Ianjoub

    Ianjoub Formula Junior

    Dec 22, 2019
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    Don't do that if you routinely go high speeds. The car will be quite a handful over 140 or so.... It will wander terribly. The negative (or positive) toe makes it track straight. Negative toe makes it change directions better than positive toe without sacrificing the straight line stability loss with zero camber.
     
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  13. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    #10 Llenroc, Mar 29, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
    I think you are thinking of caster, that effects stability. In have my toe set at 0.01 and have no stability problems at speed, see attached photo. Negative toe enhances turn in, the problem is that it will wear the inside of your tires if it is excessive and Ferraris setting does that.
    The 458s steering is quite responsive and I have not noticed any change in that, now if you are tracking the car maybe you would want/notice a difference but on the street you don’t need or notice the less aggressive setting.
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  14. Ianjoub

    Ianjoub Formula Junior

    Dec 22, 2019
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    Although caster does effect stability (shopping cart (trollys) front wheels going back and forth), toe effects TRACKING. I guess I misspoke. A car set with zero toe will tend to wander. Negative (more than positive) toe helps a car to track straight at high speeds.
     
  15. Ianjoub

    Ianjoub Formula Junior

    Dec 22, 2019
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    Oooohhhh, and I got you beat, 188 :p
     
  16. Ianjoub

    Ianjoub Formula Junior

    Dec 22, 2019
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    AND ....

    I have some lowering springs (and an alignment machine), so I was hoping to glean some advice on the OP's question as well.
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Yup, you get instant turn-in with zero toe in, but straight line stability goes to pot.
     
  18. Ianjoub

    Ianjoub Formula Junior

    Dec 22, 2019
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    Ouch, sorry, that was a typo should have read ZERO TOE.

    Sorry if I muddied the waters.
     

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