Sorry your "litmus test" is more insulting than helpful 1. Did you purchase the car from the Dealership you are asking for Goodwill from? (Should make no difference AT ALL. In fact, that is really insulting to owners. "Buy from us even though we don't have the car you like because we might PUNISH YOU when you need help") 2. Are you a Brand advocate? (What the hell does this mean? Isn't buying a $300K F car enough?) 3. Are you a Dealership advocate? (Again, what does this mean? Bringing coffee and donuts? Not saying anything "bad" online that happened to you?) 4. Are you a Ferrari Club of America member? (Complete BS. This should have no bearing on helping a customer out.) 5. Do you service your car at the Ferrari Dealership? (agreed. This I completely agree with.) 6. Do you attend Ferrari related events? (who the Eff cares!) Geez you just poured gas on the fire. This is about service DONE at a dealer under what appears to be a car under warranty. Why this is even a question is beyond me unless someone is lying or has the facts wrong. If this is not covered, its not covered. But to most who look at the power warranty is sure looks like we believed it would be.
Take it as you will, The repair is not covered under New Power Warranty, the discussion stops there. No where did I say that each item had to be a " yes " I wrote that those are questions that were asked, in consideration for goodwill. There are several examples of goodwill where the situation didn't deserve it, but these questions can help when having the discussion. Why would any business spend their goodwill money on a guy who purchased a car else where, services the car elsewhere, talks poorly of the brand and dealership, doesn't care enough to get to know the team, etc... SMH Maybe you spend money differently that I would in business, to each is own. S
I so agree with what you just said. Those F dealers acting like they are something else. Awfully condescending answer. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is why I do all my own work on my vehicles. Sounds to me like they botched the job. My guess is they failed to tighten the tensioner down and/or had the belt tension off. Those belts are usually pretty durable and difficult to destroy. Incorrect tension allows them to slip and heat up, but even that would require many miles for the belt to fail. Be glad it was just the AUX belt and not something more serious. Here's a perfect example of how a failure occurs: My neighbor just bought a used SUV. While he wasn't looking, his wife took it some place for all new hoses and belts. The motor blew a few days later. I finally went over to assess the damage the other day... Right off the bat, I noticed the new lower radiator hose had a strange wear mark on it - which indicated that, despite just having been replaced a few days back, it was in contact with a pulley that it should never have been near - but why? When I climbed under the car, I saw the lower radiator hose wasn't connected to the radiator; it was just hanging. As near as I can figure out, the shop failed to put a clamp on the lower hose and sent the car out like that. So my friend and his wife drove down the highway and the hose came off... then all the radiator fluid drained out. On a longer trip a few days later, the motor over heated - but my friend said the sun was in his eyes and he didn't see the dash warning lights until it was too late. They made it home and parked the car. A few weeks later, they said they attempted to start it and heard a metal noise. I guess the head gasket blew and the motor threw a rod - due to being hydro locked when they attempted to start it later. That's your ASE certified mechanics right there for ya. Someone probably went to lunch mid job and just forgot to put the lower hose clamp on. Or someone was day dreaming about Friday night and getting some weed or something and not paying attention to the job and/or rushing, etc. On your Ferrari, I'd ask to speak with the actual mechanic who did the work on your car; perhaps you can make an evaluation. Ferrari dealer or Chevy dealer, at the end of the day, you are still dealing with car salesmen and usually auto mechanics that barely graduated high school. The only difference is the logo outside and the extra zero on the repair bill. And before we go any further, let me interject here that I also barely graduated from high school - 1.7 GPA for the win! I never went on to college, but many of the people who worked for me later in life did (to steal a quote from Elon). You just have to be super careful with your cars and motorcycles and everything - right down to the plumbing in your house haha. The couple of times I did take my 458 in for a free belt change, I went back and spoke with the actual guy who did the work and quizzed him on stuff in the 458 factory service manual. He clearly knew his business and immediately knew answers to all the questions: who made the belt, what method to use to tension it, which tools, how many times have you done this, are you going to reset anything in the ECU, etc. Prior to that, I asked my sales guy to tell me which of their mechanics is the one who services the La Ferraris when they come in and who is generally considered the best back there in service. Initially they started off with, "well, they are all equally good, this is Ferrari" and I just replied, "ERRR... wrong answer, try again; someone is better than the rest - that's who's doing my belt, so cut the ****" They definitely weren't used to customers talking back to them like that... but I don't really care. At the end of the day, you've got to take matters into your own hands, especially when servicing exotic, high performance cars. Ray
When a repair is not covered under stated warranties and a customer is effectively asking for a "gift" or "concession" then I would expect a factors list somewhat like you described. I did find the use of the term "goodwill money" interesting. How is this constituted? Is this dealership money or manufacturer money or both? Is this basically the dealership pleading the case to Ferrari and it's up to Ferrari to give the concession? Is there a budgeted amount or pool for this so that it's a limited resource that has to be prioritized? I've never had an unsatisfactory service experience yet with my Ferraris, but they've all been under factory warranty. I did lose an engine in a Chevy truck I owned. It was a known weak design and there was a bulletin to replace the engine under warranty if certain symptoms showed up. However, I got a CEL on the engine 6,000 miles out of warranty (42,000 miles out of 36,000 miles) and learned it had to be replaced. The initial response to my warranty query was "we're sorry, it's not covered". I had in fact bought it at another dealer in my area but was having it serviced at a more local dealer that I liked and had given business to for several years. When I pointed out that it was ridiculous to lose an engine with such low miles, they went to bat for me with the regional GM service executive. Basically, they got GM to agree to cover half of the replacement cost and then they chipped in by discounting the labor hours. So net I got a new engine for about 25-30% of the cost, which I found acceptable. Is this similar to how Ferrari "goodwill" might work? Also, I had always assumed it was fine to buy a car at one dealership and have it serviced under warranty at another, because the warranty costs were being covered by the manufacturer. However, I had a neighbor who bought a Winnebago RV from a Socal dealer and tried to have it serviced at the local Norcal dealer. What he told me is that the Norcal dealer gave it an attempt but failed to resolve the issue (the slideouts got stuck) because there was an inherent defect or poor quality in the design. He learned that Winnebago apparently gives very skimpy reimbursement to the dealers for warranty repairs and that the dealer was apparently well in the red for the service attempts. Because of this, they kept referring my neighbor to Winnebago for further resolution, but Winnebago ignored the customer. Finally, my neighbor parked the RV with 4' x 8' banners on it printed with "Winnebago Lemon" in front of the dealership. After several weeks of this, Winnebago and the dealer agreed to take the RV back and gave him credit for the purchase price on a different brand of RV. But the warranty reimbursement practices which caused the 3rd party dealership to be caught in a bind were an interesting revelation.
There you go you answered the question i posted finally. Extended warrantee and power warrantee ( which i know are 2 different things ) IMO he WASNT PROPERLY advised about Extended warrantee and the differences to the power warrantee , THAT IS BS and a shame. IMO they knew there was an issue as those parts don't deteriorate that fast. ( the owner can tell us how many Miles he put on.) and they flogged him the power warrantee which wont cover it like a FULL WARRANTEE which is Extended warrantee. Good will pigs arse he is taken for a ride , very poor advise given BTW this is not an owner fault what so ever , its a part issue and or and installation issue. With that said if that happened to me here which we have the best consumer laws in the world i would sue the original seller.
@RayJohns so on a 488 drive belt tensioner, there is no reason to remove the tensioner when replacing the engine drivebelt. you do use a tool to release tension that then allows the proper routing of said drivebelt. Could it have been routed incorrectly, yes, there is always that chance, but at the same time, there is a chance that a part failed, it happens. Rare on both occasions. I'm not sure if you are taking a broad swipe at all Ferrari technicians in the industry or just Dealership technicians, I can only speak of my team, and state that you are so far of base, its doesn't warrant a reply longer than to simply say you are wrong. But got it, your position and opinion is clear. Mistakes do happen, no matter how experienced one may be. S
I'm sorry what? There was only one option available when this car was sold back in May, which was New Power Warranty The 4th & 5th year warranty extension was not an option, so how exactly was the OP taken advantage of? "parts don't deteriorate that fast" huh, how is it that you come to know this as fact, asking for a friend... S
Hi Ray , this issue isnt a replaced tensioner its the original that was on the car. Its the original that has failed. It smells to high heaven . It would have been picked up by the original seller . They just hid the fact and offered only the extended warrantee. So its not covered when it totally failed , get it ? He has been screwed. A good solicitor and reasonable mechanic with evidence and he would win. BTW and parts that are replaced not by warrantee you can demand them to be given to you. He paid and he should have received the parts. Ild bet one of the bolts slowley gave way.
Got a quick question Is it recommended that the tensioner be replaced at a particular interval or service such as when changing the “serpentine’ engine belt? how much it for the new tensioner? $400?
Garbage , are you telling me there was no 4th and 5th year extended warrantee ???? It was already being offered when i spec my car back in early 2017. For the belt to self destruct like this a simple observation and a tensioner gauge would have shown any issue in the yearly service at the second year. Frankly ild bet the owner put hardly any miles on it since his purchase and failure. LET him answer that. Somehow you thing these things are weak ? When only one or a few issues are noted from 1000's of cars it a part issue or an installation issue period NOT the owner , obviously depending on the part. And with this failure the owner could NOT have caused it.
When a repair is not covered under stated warranties and a customer is effectively asking for a "gift" or "concession" then I would expect a factors list somewhat like you described. I did find the use of the term "goodwill money" interesting. How is this constituted? Is this dealership money or manufacturer money or both? Is this basically the dealership pleading the case to Ferrari and it's up to Ferrari to give the concession? Is there a budgeted amount or pool for this so that it's a limited resource that has to be prioritized? Goodwill is money that comes from both or all parties. ( Ferrari & Dealership , sometimes owner is asked to pay a portion ) Yes, I have to plead the case to FNA who then asks the factory, who replies with what they are willing to offer. I cannot say if its limited, but I can tell you that not all request are approved right or wrong. I've never had an unsatisfactory service experience yet with my Ferraris, but they've all been under factory warranty. I did lose an engine in a Chevy truck I owned. It was a known weak design and there was a bulletin to replace the engine under warranty if certain symptoms showed up. However, I got a CEL on the engine 6,000 miles out of warranty (42,000 miles out of 36,000 miles) and learned it had to be replaced. The initial response to my warranty query was "we're sorry, it's not covered". I had in fact bought it at another dealer in my area but was having it serviced at a more local dealer that I liked and had given business to for several years. When I pointed out that it was ridiculous to lose an engine with such low miles, they went to bat for me with the regional GM service executive. Basically, they got GM to agree to cover half of the replacement cost and then they chipped in by discounting the labor hours. So net I got a new engine for about 25-30% of the cost, which I found acceptable. Is this similar to how Ferrari "goodwill" might work? Similar, but not exactly. But yes, it is a good example of how it may work if a client had a concern that was not able to be addressed during warranty, but finally failed outside of warranty. I have also had times when a repair that was not covered under New Power Warranty that due to the client meeting several of the items I listed above, where Ferrari paid for the parts and I paid for the labor, and the client didn't pay a dime. It made good business sense, the client didn't even have to ask, we went to bat for them. Also, I had always assumed it was fine to buy a car at one dealership and have it serviced under warranty at another, because the warranty costs were being covered by the manufacturer. However, I had a neighbor who bought a Winnebago RV from a Socal dealer and tried to have it serviced at the local Norcal dealer. What he told me is that the Norcal dealer gave it an attempt but failed to resolve the issue (the slideouts got stuck) because there was an inherent defect or poor quality in the design. He learned that Winnebago apparently gives very skimpy reimbursement to the dealers for warranty repairs and that the dealer was apparently well in the red for the service attempts. Because of this, they kept referring my neighbor to Winnebago for further resolution, but Winnebago ignored the customer. Finally, my neighbor parked the RV with 4' x 8' banners on it printed with "Winnebago Lemon" in front of the dealership. After several weeks of this, Winnebago and the dealer agreed to take the RV back and gave him credit for the purchase price on a different brand of RV. But the warranty reimbursement practices which caused the 3rd party dealership to be caught in a bind were an interesting revelation. It is ok to purchase your Ferrari from whomever and wherever one wants to, I am sorry if my question above implied otherwise. BUT it does factor in... for example. An owner purchase a pre owned Ferrari and are given the option to purchase additional warranty through Ferrari, but opts not to. The engine drivebelt tensioner fails 50 miles after picking the car up from the sales department. The repairs could be denied via Ferrari but then the Dealership could then choose to spend the money to cover the repairs out of a portion of the profit made during the sales, covering the service bill. This is still " goodwill " but not factory goodwill. Your example above regarding the Winnebago is a good one, when I was at Audi, I saw the same thing, owner was fed up with his TT and wrapped it to look like a lemon, created the website www.myaudittsucks.com and after alot of arguing and fighting, Audi purchased the car back, just like your example. S
The Ferrari has 2 tensioners as you can see in the bill > $2500. I highly doubt that tensioners and or belts are replaced with only 6,600 miles. This car had an issue , period. Someone is telling porkies.
You guys have very weak consumer laws. This is a second hand car , a JEEP https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/jeep-to-pay-50000-to-fix-familys-faulty-grand-cherokee-suv/news-story/747575260b807ec99c541421bc57562e
I definitely have the power warranty. It is referenced in the service records. Today the dealer says they’re going to reimburse my credit card and then file a warranty claim with Ferrari North America.
How many miles did the car have when you bought it ? and therefor how many miles did YOU put on your 488 before the service ?
I haven't found anything in writing that states replace it at X miles or XX years. I am told that they are inspected for wear, rotated by hand checked for smooth operations, also listening for grinding or other audible anomalies, etc... if something is found, its replacement is suggested. AND, the part is always available to the client before and after the repairs are performed. $908.16 S
I am telling you that THIS Chassis warranty expired on 11/28/2019... 4th and/or 5th year warranty has to be purchased while the car is still under factory warranty. THIS chassis was purchased on or about 5/15/2020 over 5 months after said factory warranty had expired, which means the only option at the time was New Power Warranty. Since this chassis was purchased as a CPO vehicle, it was therefore eligible for a 2 for 1 special that Ferrari NA has in place, giving this chassis 2 years of coverage for the price of one, which expires on 5/15/2022 ( though I would suggest getting in at least a day or 2 earlier than that ... just in case ) I have no idea about your Ferrari. Hardly any miles vs 5,000 miles, doesn't really matter does it, a part failed, its being covered now, what was your issue again? Do I think they are weak? Nope, quite the opposite, I think they are very well made, but I recognize that mechanical parts fail in all industries, you on the other hand seem oblivious to that and want to file suit... whatever works for you. Lastly, I never said that the owner caused it, I don't think they did, I think a part failed that's wasn't covered under warranty, that is now being taken care of by Ferrari. Best possible outcome for all involved! S
In the United States, engine drive belts are replace under the 7 year service program, regardless of miles. As are engine filters, cabin air filters, ignition coils are cleaned, etc... by time, not miles. ( for the 1st 7 years starting in 2012 and purchasable from year 8 on under the Main Power Warranty program ) Is it different where you are? S
Same here. IMO he never was formally explained the differences in warrantees as its done here. If he knew better he could have looked at another car. Then frankly it passed inspection at 5/15/ 2020 but failed 5 months latter yeh right. AS IF. IMO it was a known issue. I would have imagined regardless of Ferrari warrantees etc , any car in the States over a certain value would be given a full warrantee for at least a year . If not wow where is your consumer law ?
Maybe I misunderstood it, but it sounded like the belt was replaced and then wouldn't the tensioner need to be adjusted? Or is the 488 using a hydraulic tensioning system maybe? Whatever the case, I agree it smells to high heaven. Ray
I couldn't find any evidence in this article that the repairs to this Jeep were covered under strong "consumer laws". Rather it appears Jeep finally agreed to cover the repairs due to unexpected media attention. I also noted that the Jeep was purchased used in 2015 and this article was written in 2019. That leaves one with the impression that it took almost 4 years to resolve this issue? Australian consumer laws might in fact be stronger, but I don't get that from this article.
Nah, I'm not putting down Ferrari mechanics specifically; not at all. More like everyone working at car dealerships But I'm kinda joking though.. I mean, I have a lot of friends who work at car dealerships and parts counters, etc, etc. My main point was that there is always a risk to having others service your car and that just because there's a Ferrari sign out front, that doesn't mean you are somehow insulated from things going wrong. As you correctly point out, no matter how experienced and/or careful someone is, mistakes do happen. My experience is that usually when someone else is working on your car, the level of care and attention to detail is typically going to be somewhat lower than if you are doing the work yourself. Maybe not always, but often times. I mean, I have found people working at Ferrari service centers who do plenty good work. There used to be a guy named Ace (?) as I remember, who worked at dealerships up in northern CA who was second to none. I never lost any sleep when he was working on my 355. There is also a guy at Ferrari of SF named Edgar Cervantes, who is top notch (he's the guy who did the belt on my 458 and I was super impressed with him). He did a bang up job and I wouldn't hesitate to have him wrenching on any of my stuff - although I prefer to be the one doing the work if at all possible. Part of that is just the pure economics of the situation; if I'm working on my own car, I can devote 10 or 20 hours to doing a job that a dealer might need to finish in 4 hours. I can take my time, taking extra special care or fixing things which might not be perfect the first time, etc. That's simply not something a dealership can do and stay in business. That means, whether you witness it first hand or not, there is sometimes some level of rushing and corner cutting which can sometimes take place when having others work on your stuff. It's just a simple fact of life. Anyone who has a lot of experience building motors, servicing vehicles, etc. knows it. So I have to standby my original point: which is you are taking your life in your own hands, many more times than you might realize, when you hand over the keys to your $300K car and have someone else start working on it. Unless you happen to be dealing with a really high level of qualified service people (and I think probably at Ferrari service centers that's more often than not the case thankfully), then I think there is always a chance of things going wrong due to sub par quality workmanship occurring. I don't need to cite specific examples or name name; it's just part of the territory when dealing with new and used cars. Anyway, feel free to count me in the mix also. I've screwed up more than one job on my own vehicles, despite going to extreme lengths to do the absolutely highest level of workmanship I possibly can. Case and point, I'm in the garage right now, removing U-joint from a driveshaft for the 2nd time, because the first time around I nearly accidentally destroyed my poor driveshaft by not paying attention to what the F I was doing - despite having researched it all and thinking I was doing a great job. How the driveshaft survived it frankly a miracle... Ray
This thread has gotten so involved that I'm going to have to go back and re-read everything... I would guess the belt in question is probably very similar to the Dayco one used on the 458. Dayco makes absolutely top quality belts. That's all I use whenever possible. My pickup truck motor has a brand new Dayco fan belt on it right now as a matter of fact (here's a pic). So for one of their belts to bite the dust so quickly, something major had to go off track some place. Ray Image Unavailable, Please Login
