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512BB prices dropping?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by jww427, May 29, 2018.

  1. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Big range in prices on Dinos from a knock-off wheel 246 right up to a chairs and flairs GTS car (the most expensive version). Could be a $200K range right there within the Dino's.
     
  2. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I think nice boixers are in the low 200k range or back to 2013 pricing. We have seen not too shabby testarosas in the high 50's to low 80s sell recently.
    F40s well below 1 mill.

    the market is off and off significantly, 30-40% off peak.
    The new instant collectables (488 pista) still seem to hold their prices.
    I think that the creation of new instant collectables has had an imapct on classic prices. New cars are shiney work right out the box and require little taste or skill of the owner, and its an easier market for ferrari and others to manipulate and manage.

    The economy is different now, people not hedging on collectables as they were before the election, so the "investor" money is out old cars and its gone back to paper investments. You gotta figure a lot of those so called "investors" have now been well burned having bought mechanicaly so so but cosmeticaly nice cars for a 40% premium on the market today. Also under the new tax code you cant trade up on your gains without paying capital gains tax. So the cycle of selling and using your profit for something more expensive is gone. In Europe the Euro is weakening so in dollar terms prices are dropping, or US cars are expensive.

    That all being said. I recently looked over a 288GTO. To the eye there is not much to recomend one over a BBI, similar cockpit similar era, the 288 really looks like a 308 and the BBi more classy. Yes I am sure the 288 is more of a blast to drive, but 2.5million dollars more, theyre both old cars and not "fast" by modern standards whatever that means. A BB is still a fantastic buy and long term I can see them besting daytonas, just as Miuras did.

    one day the market will figure it out, just as it did dinos.

    meanwhile now is a great time to buy.
     
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  3. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

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    Really?
     
  4. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    yep sold europe high 800s
     
  5. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

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    Euro or dollars? What milleage? Is VAT payable? I don't have an F40 and am not actively in the market but my sense is that generally they are safely above $1mm. They only seem to dip below if it's a story car with big mileage and equally big needs or comes from a non-EU country (Switzerland for example) and is thus subject to a hefty value added tax.

    Anyways, back to the topic - if boxers are indeed low 200s then they are an interesting value proposition...
     
  6. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Boxers are in the low 200's.
    On F40s at the other end of the scale I heard of a sub 5k mile car in USA 1.1 mill.
     
  7. E_Man

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    I would be interested in a nice car in the low 200's
     
  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    does this mean that you have to pay this capital gains tax independently how long you had the car? in germany you may keep the car minimum 1 year and all istax free what you gain when you sell
     
  9. Parnelli

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    Well written piece boxer-man. What Testarossa’s have you seen that sold in the $50s through $80s level?
     
  10. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    here you pay capital gains on a car regardless of how long you had it, there is also no capital loss allowed on car, its a one way street.
    In the past you could avoid the capital gains if you bought another collector car with the money form the sale within 30 days, in other words traded up with your winnings, now its not allowed.
     
  11. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Ill post when i am home tonight and have acess tot he Data.
     
  12. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Theyre out there.
     
  13. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    I looked into that when I sold my Boxer, and it simply wasn't worth it. You could do it in theory, but it was very difficult to actually pull it off, especially without costing more than you would save in the end. In real estate, there are established programs for doing it, and it's a well worn path. Not so much in cars. I guess you can't do it at all any more.
     
  14. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    If you're serious, ignore the asking prices and start making some cash offers. I bet you get a bite pretty quickly. That's the only way to find out.
     
  15. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Once the speculators feel it's not worth speculating, then you get to the real enthusiasts and what they are will to pay for one.

    The market is over heated by people wanting "Enzo era"cars as cash cows.
     
    davidoloan, sixcarbs and Jakuzzi like this.
  16. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    RM sothebys Monaco may 12
    84 512 BBI 11,400kms $ 219,586
    Same car sold at RM in London in 2014 for 317, 294

    1989 Testarossa Expo center sale
    27,000 miles $53,500

    1988 testrossa
    Meecum Houston April
    85 Testarossa single mirror 49k miles $86,000
     
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  17. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    this one way is equal here in germany, but only the first 12 month, nevertheless if you buy a new or used car, after those 12 month the gaining is free from tax
    but all is moving always and so may be it will change soon?
     
  18. Parnelli

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    boxerman- I just read my latest issue of 'Sports Car Market' magazine. I saw the article about the Rosso Corso/Tan 1989 TR with 28k miles that sold for $53,500 !

    The '85 TR only got bid to $86K. It Did not sell.
     
  19. E_Man

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    Were there any major issues with the '84 BB that sold for $219?
     
  20. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    I can't answer personally but here it is:

    https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/MC18/Monaco/lots/r0003-1984-ferrari-512-bbi/602520

    Delivered new through La Jolla Ferrari in January of 1984, chassis number 49533’s first owner was Lawrence D. Englehart of Santa Ana, California. It was finished in the traditional Ferrari colour scheme of Rosso Corsa over a Beige leather interior, which it retains to this day. After departing California, the car became part of a Ferrari collection in Switzerland and was purchased by its current owner in 2014. In August of that year, the car received a cam belt service and a full fluid flush. Showing under 11,750 miles on its odometer, the 512 BBi presents exceptionally throughout. It is accompanied by a full set of books and manuals, along with a tool roll.
     
  21. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Its an okay car but not fantastic. Repaint for sure because they forgot to put the black strip inside the lower side scoops, bumper tow hook hole has a run in the paint and too shiny for those miles that low down on the front of the car. It was DOT converted and undone - mostly.
     
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  22. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    i am sure most of you know this but worth repeating.....
    there are boxers and then there are boxers.....

    mine was imported to the usa in 1983, homologated by Amerispec (very well done as usual), then bought back into italy in the 90's, and eventually found its way to switzerland where i bought it nearly 10 years ago. you can see what amerispec did, but it was so well done that it could easily be reversed to meet european code.

    this is often NOT the case with many of the cars that were homologated by companies other than amerispec. i have seen many dreadful chop jobs that could be reversed but would incur substantial cost and some damage to the car.

    then there is the mechanical state...engines that look great but havent been serviced in 30 years, similar for trannies, brakes etc. each of those remedies will cost you 10's of thousands, and lots of time.

    so, yes, i think there has been a drop in prices, that roughly follows a fibonacci reversal btw, and i reckon the average price range has fallen about $100k from the highs (the forex fluctuations make this slightly harder to track of course), HOWEVER, making definitive assessments from viewing cars on an auction website is not easy, and not reliable.

    by all means, those with a desire for a boxer should probably try to find one now, but please arm yourselves with an expert to inspect the car in person.
     
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  23. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Ross some interesting observations you make.
    I think it was early 14 when two low mileage BBIs that had sat for 15 years were sort of started and ran well enough to idle across the auction block, they sold for +350K which was surely the high water mark in BBi pricing. Realistcaly once comissioned these cars were well over 400k, I think there were a few others that sold then for +400k. I also remember in early 13 when a black one from a dealer in Li was suddenly bid to 220k that was the start of the surge.

    Newman will remember the black which had burned up that sold for 175k

    Could one find a better car with everything done for 250-275K probably and that may be a better buy. But as you say prices are off 100k.

    Another interesting point and not from this thread is your car which was Amerispec went back to switzerland and now may come back stateside. Anybody who thinks that tarrifs on classics of 25% will drive up USa prices is smoking crack. These cars prices are supported by a market of global demand. Trapping cars in one country may sometimes lead to temporarily higher prices and at other times much lower prices. In europe real prices paid to seller are lower than here by whatever the Vat is.

    Its clear though that near classic exotic prices are off, thats true for ferrari Aston and apprently porches. Maseratis still seems strong, or maybe the Ghibli has finaly been reckognized, as the BB will one day too, just look at the gap between a BB and Miura, yes Miura is a seminal car, but the gap is way to huge for reality. Also anyone who thinks BBs suffer because they are hard to live with has never driven a Miura. Nevertheless the speculator money is no longer in cars and fishing in different ponds.

    TRs are really going to suffer. Putting a decent car perfect can be a 50k proposition. Worthwhile on 500k car, less so on sub 100k car.

    We're in the phase now where dealers for cashflow are starting to liquidate stock of cars that sit, TRs which a lot of dealers bought to hold an create a market are suffering, as are some aircooled porches.
     
  24. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Ross's point is right on. My issue with auctions is you have to trust the person selling it and the documentation supplied. MANY enthusiasts would question this as the only method of understanding the car.

    Speculators don't care. It's going to sit there another 2 years and they will flip it. As long as it presents well and has documentation they are happy.

    So, the idea that "there are boxers and there are boxers" is completely correct. Some are more valuable to an enthusiast, others more valuable for a speculator only interested in it as a commodity. On that level they can be apples and oranges.
     
    turbo-joe and boxerman like this.
  25. Oengus

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    I’ve been looking lately
    All over the map
    250-400
     

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