Not saying that they aren't, but the storage life is not infinity -- and an unused engine with unused Motronic is a very, very good place to start. What would you say is the maxium time limit from manufacture to use? 3 decades? 4 decades? Of course, if you prepare the BBi engine for storage is the same way, a couple of decades is probably doable (although more functional rubbery bits/seals in the CIS system so maybe not as "storable" as Motronic - even if starting out clean and "lubed" for storage - whatever that might be). However, if I'm a Buyer of a used BBi engine coming out of 10~20 years of storage, and you want me to pay the top dollar price, you better have a project thread here to reference -- i.e., the value of that BBi engine, the day after it is removed, is more than it will be in 10~20 years of disuse unless seriously prepped and documented -- JMO (you asked for opinions!). PS Anyone who takes a 512M engine out of a Boxer is making a huge mistake IMO.
I think if we are going 20 years out any BBI motor is going to need serious work along the way anyway. Also every 5-7 years you need to do a eo so the BBI engine can get prepped and swapped back in at any point along the line. But yes documentation and prepping are two excellend ideas. In the big future based on the history we see now, we know any ferrari is worth more with original motor tranny etc,
I wasnt thinking that long! 40 years from now Ill be dead for who knows how long so Im not too worried about that lol. Im just thinking 5 years down the road if the cars are more valuable how will it be viewed having the wrong but far superior engine in it and a BBi coffee table as a package deal? Im thinking of plopping one in my carbed car, I can hear the moaning and groaning now! You did what!!! You put a fuel injected engine in a carbed boxer? Maybe Ill put carbs on the M engine.....
In 5 years the Boxer with orig motor will be worth more. Unless, unless the whole project gets the right sort of publicity, then like a porche RS recreation or a singer proche it will be worth a lot more. All it takes is the right educated mag wrteup. Something like this, a Boxer ferrari would have built, or The perfect boxer. Here is what we know, boxers are potentialy great but compromised cars, some compromise adds feel and charater, others due to legislation and technology blunts the potential. And what potential a boxer has, we know that when prepped for racing a boxer is significantly fatser around a track than a F40. What then held the boxer back, they came at a period when tire technology had not caught up with chassis design, also a period when legislation in terms of emissions held power back as the computer and Fi technology had not yet overcome and superseeded the isuue. The changes to unlock a boxer handling are simple, modern wheels and tires, the change unlocks so much potential from the chasis its like it was designed to run modern PS2's. As to motor you have two choices in stock boxer. Get a BB which is carebed with all that impies, or get a BBI with its superior driveability torque and response. The drawback to a BBI is they feel soft on top, and any boxer unless it has a worked motor and cams is just not going to pull like we are used to these dyas. Now imagine if the boxer had continued to be devekloped like porche did with the 911. You know modern tires, 4 valve heads modern FI, in fact go further than even porche id, What about titanium conrods for light internal mass to go with all the rest. We know this did not happen, instead ferrari took the boxer concept into the big and heavy dead end of the TR. Enter Newman, a man who took all the best bits, great suspesion modern wheels and tires, the light lithe boxer body and mated it to the ultimate flat 12 from a 512M, viola the perfect boxer. Injected, strong down low, exceptional response with a pull up top no boxer no matter the spec ever had. A car lighter and better handling than a TR. Cant afford a 288 GTO for over $1million, for a quater of that you get a better performing period ferrari with a soprano voice no 288 could ever emulate, behold the 512BBM, the ultimate classic 12, all the power you could ever want, light lithe raw and viceral. Somehting as fast as a BBLM but comfortable on the street. Lock up your 550 Maranelos and 599's the BBLM is here. In other words a car Ferrai would have built had they continued to develop a falt 12 for ultimate perfomance. Or something like that. And 5 years later, if the BBI motor has been stored well, just drop it back in with new belts etc at EO time. But then you really would have to sell it because its going to feel like acar missing afew cyclinders.
We know a boxer weighs 3300 lbs. You can lighten them pretty easily with an exhaust, ditch the spare and toolkit, plus a lipo battery and you must be close to 3200lbs. I am guessing that by the time Newman is done tuning the M motor is going to be North of 470 hp. Now what is the torque of a 512M motor. Compare those stats to a 458. The boxer is going to be lighter, have abit less Hp but I am guessing gobs more torque across a very broad range. Yes the aerodymics dont compare and there are other compromised. But on the street below 150 mph guess whic one will be more fun, feel and be faster once rolling(no trick paddle craps) and it is a car you actualy have to drive and think ahead of, for the quintessential sunday drive or aclub run which would you choose.
If someone is worried about Money at this level, then the project is not for them. The purists will disagree, and I am one of them....BUT, this is a free country and if you have the means, and it's your thing to have a resto mod, then a resto mod it is. To each there own
Resto mod implies non reverable. This is just a wheel sawp and next EO away from being stock. Think of t more as a press on drivers car.
Assuming its reverted back ... In that case, I would agree. BUT....in this format it would be a resto, odds are once started, you will upgrade the bakes , and on and on....it is subjective.
True about the brakes. I find them excellent at speeds below 80. But if you were going say 150ish and wanted to loose a lot of speed quick they are pretty toast by the time you get down to say 70 and that is with aftermarket pads. I read somewhere that the daytona is similarily afflicted. My thoughts are that really agressive pads like a pagid rs14 or some type of carbo tech can resolve this, but I have experienced boxer rotors warping too. All of which is to say that I think high temp fluid, rotors and pads but keeping the calipers should work fine. Its not a track car so the brakes have a very different cycle. Anybody know what the BBlm has for brakes? i thonk the calipers on a boxer were used by many a hi perf car back in the day. I suppose once can do willwood calipers too and loose some weight, but once again only if the reconversion is simple. Lastly the one change I would make is to go to a ride height adjustment, which a number of boxers already have, or ride height and new shocks/springs which probably costs the same. So yeah we will end up with a classic boxer body, the best ferrari boxer motor in a 512M, upgraded brakes and shocks to handle it all. Still essentilay a boxer. We will call it a BB512M, it should have close to BBLM performance. More or less what people do with a F40 these days.
The term resto-mod describes a "restored" car thats been "modified" during the restoration. This car is just a modified car thats easily undone. A resto-mod is pretty much a one way street. Like a friend said, "how many times do you live?" My philosophy is why save it for the next guy, have fun now and if done right you're actually enjoying something the way you want to with the option to go back or even further. Win-win in my mind.
Ill put it this way, I love my boxer, but its also very limited. On a twisty te real powerband starts in the low 4's and ends by 6400 or so. Kinda like a Glodwing really stromng and smooth but missing that second hit when the revs go up. The Ac sucks to the point where its not adriveable car for most of the summer, maybe thta cant change. The ride is great, but like my M3 past 9/10ths it gets floppy. For basic twisties the brakes are fine. Now if you say really really pushed on just going all out on 3rs and 4th gear roads you would find that the motor runs out of puff due to reving out the power band and that 4th would run the revs to low for other bends. Having a wider powerband even wth the same Hp woudl make the car run way better. Having a motor that could scream like t 365 BB does with the low down go of a BBI would encompass the best of all boxer traits. Lastly not having the car flop about on le tor and r to l transitions would also be a big plus. So what I am looking to do is not change aboxer, just expand the bandwidth significatly. Having the low down of a BBI and the top end+ of a 365, a car with turbine like thrust. Tires with some grip and a non bubblegum sideall flex, suspension that holds it together not just to 8/10ths but 10/10ths. In other words if you love boxer and the way they go, lets work out the flaws which were a creature of lack of development and legislation and make this both a comfortable but also a more pure driving car. You know just like porche did witht he 911 through the 993. Since its all ferrari bits we might say its what ferrari would have done hade they continued with the boxer. In many ways its what lambo did wth the Ct. at least as far as 1988.
Hey -- no changing the question! Not sure that I'd take a primo carbed BB out of service, but I like this description of what having a 512M powerplant in a BBi would be (it has a factory generational logic): Unlike an even more powerful turboed modification, this modification (if done well) has "quasi-Glickenhaus-factor" IMO that adds value (whereas, the turbo does not) -- JMO. PS How are you planning to prepare that CIS engine for storage? Can't recall anyone not having some grief when a used CIS engine went into disuse for a few years.
here are a couple other suggestions. - instead of using your original and sorted bb, buy a bb wreck. not something too smashed up, but one that needs everything. strip it down, swap out the motors, and then do everything else up in the car to modern spec - electrics, brakes, tranny, wheels, shocks, aircon etc. and make it into the bb512m you are talking about. - put together a 512bblm as a recreation of the original, but using fiberglass panels, and underneath it all its modern with everything required to have good fun on track days. it will be very light, and should be fun. - buy a 512tr wreck - preferably with a shot motor, and then make it into something cool - either a track day monster, or a roadster like william's.
Very costly plus we have to wait for a BBi that's smashed just right? Add to that the desire of the shop that bought it to part it out and make money. Buying a complete smacked boxer is tough to do. The investment in Sean's current boxer is much less overall and he has a sellable car without a salvage title.
When it comes to the track, there are better cars than boxers, this is going to be a street car, that might on very few occasions see a track. But mostly its to run some wide open rallies, maybe the mille miglia and some other stuff. Or just to drive on sundays. As to the Tr. The whole convesion is going to cost lets say 50K+ How much is a Tr worth without a swapped motor. You would need a pristine testarossa body for under 20k or for free for it to make sense, and even then there is no recovery. This way you get to drive one awesome ferrari, at the end plop the orig motor back in and sell off the mod bits, you probably recover everything and still have the appreciation on a pristine boxer. My other thoughts are to sell the motor and sell the boxer. With the 200k I can buy a porche 993 turbo and a great euro 308GT4 as street cars. I still have my Lotus and am building a SPF GT40 for track. I have looked at upgrading the power on my Boxer before. Upgrading a stock motor to 400hp is a 50k proposition when all is said and done. Plus then you have a permenantly modded boxer and will still suffer the FI foibles . I dont know what I will do in the end, nice choices to have. I do know that I bought the motor because I saw it years ago, thought of the possibilities since then, and now this was the last one left, so if you dont buy the ticket you can never do the ride. Plus and this is the biggest impetus; we have Newman, he has figured out how to make one of these motors run and fitted it to a car. You cant do a project like this without the resource of someone skilled enough to bring it through.
No doubt, it's a matter of preference. If I can't use the term "resto mod" , can I use the term a speed-o Rama car? I like getting into my glass car and listening to captain and tennille like it was 1976 Something about getting into a bb boxer from the same era and listening to that kind of music with 450hp would give me a complex it would feel so wrong in playing jazz and Kanye in an 81 bb....know what I mean ? Btw, I disapprove of color changes too on the old classic cars But, as they say, money talks, so if you have the cheese, amd it turns your crank...then be the baller you can be...I agree life is to short not to do what works for you. Just don't expect everyone to like it or agree, or pay for it on resale. Have fun!
I speak as a complete fan of what Paul and others have done/continue to do with vintage Boxers. A couple of comments: First, on Paul's OP regarding the value change from placement of the M engine. While there are some questions surrounding storage of the correct/original engine, my opinion is the value is roughly the same for most buyers and perhaps slightly to moderately enhanced for the right buyer. In a worst case scenario, I can't see how easily reversible changes discussed will ever devalue more than the extent of the actual cost of the swap. The caveat to that is the person who flogs the car with more power and damages the trans/diff, brakes, suspension, and generally wears rest of the car out. But you could say that for any driver that is used extensively with the stock motor. The other thought I have as to originality is this. The Boxer was the pinnacle of road motoring in its day. Boxerman mentioned brake upgrades to counteract the quicker access to speed the more powerful engine would enable. One of the attractions the Boxer ( and Ferrari road cars possess in general) is the poetic balance of all the elements of road driving enjoyment. My problem with muscle cars, including exotics such as the Pantera, is that they were one dimensional and didn't offer the full driving experience. Mustangs and Camaros might have decent straight line speed but couldn't brake or turn. Even the capable driving modern Corvettes have all the speed and agility boxes checked, but lack the cabin refinement and looks that stand the test of time. Porsches (and Dinos) had great handling, made great sounds, but even the 930's lacked the seamless power on tap with a flat 12. Boxers had it all, and in the extreme. I understand completely the desire to apply more capable modern components to what is already such a great platform. In small ways I have ventured down that slippery slope with more modern tires/wheels while entertaining exhaust upgrades. On the personal side, the enjoyment from my Boxer is partially derived from knowing that I am driving arguably the most potent and complete road car made to that point. For that reason, it is hard for me to imagine I would enjoy a modded Boxer over stock, long term. YMMV.
To each his own of course, so do what you like. One small point though.....many historical rallies, and certainly the mm tribute, and now most likely the targa florio tribute, will ask you to submit paperwork pictures and history of the car you want to enter, and one modified like this will not be allowed. If that doesn't matter, then carry on!
Except the picture from the MM tribute of aboxer had modern wheels and tires. Also who will be able to tell the motor swap. Is it really any different to half the daytonas out there running cams and psitons, or pretty much all the 275GT4's that have removed the air cleaners upgraded the brakes and other bits.
Thing is if we are bring hones the Boxer was not the pinavcle. From a performance perspective the countach outshined it. The Ct thoiugh is a rough and ready unrefined car. The rub aganist the boxer is that it lacked that seamless top end rush tat so charaterised the daytona(so in some eyes is a step backwards) The boxer has the chassis a daytona dos not but then is shod with crappy tires unavle to exploit it. in shgort the boxer is a near great in stock form. It ha s ashape to die for and potetialy the greatest of all ferrari 12's. But a boxer is also an unresolved car. the 70's were not kind to ferrari and they did not have the resources or will to develop the car fully. As a result boxers have languished int he ferrari panteon. Now days we have the tire tech to exploit the chasis, some did p7 conversions back in the day too. As to motor, we are not hot roding or doing atuner thing on th e motor, rather transplanting the ultimate boxer mtor in. Think of it as a BBLM in street cloths. As to brakes pretty much all the 275's have had brake mods because the stock brakes sucked. Even many F40's have had F50 brakes installed. From my perspective as long as its all ferrari bits what we are doing is not much more comcetyualy thatn a wheel change. As a Boxer needs a 5 year EO putting it back to stack is really just part of the regular 5 year service. From a driving perspective, i have had mine for over 20 years now. What i yearn for is that rush of power you get in a BBI to continue past 6k and grow. I will bet that if ferrari did not have to meet emissions and fuel regs the BBI would not have been built and we would have had ever better BB's. The BBM we propose will have all the best elements of every boxer distilled into onbe car. BTW the 70's were a low point in performance cars, many performance stats were worse than the ones thta preceded them. This was the result of regulation, not what manufacturers intended. Look at a porche 928 it started at 22ohp and grew to 350 with better brakes and wheels along the way. Nothing that was the essence of the 928 was lost. We propose the same evolution of the boxer, retaining all the essence and purity, feel and experience, just turning up the bandwidth. Think of it as the eagles on Cd instead of the flawed and now unsuported casette format. the same thing only better. Yeah many cars are moded, or reto moded and become something else. i think I am close enogh tot he boxer in feel and experience to retain all the essence of the car just with more. Its not going to feel or drive like amodern, but its envelope will be greatly expanded. You know when you pass a gumball machine on a twisty and decide he may turn around so you get a move on before anything shows up in your rearview mirror, that is when the limitations of a stock BBI boxer come into relief. So imagine the revs and top end drive of a 365 with the torque and directness of a BBI, all shod with tires that can exploit the chassis. Nothing more, pure boxer distilled to its essence with contaminants removed. Seriously if you wanted to go for a real sunday drive, would you want to try the ultimate boxer or the videogame 458.
You can have a BBi drive at high rpm like a 365 and handle with tires and suspension mods. I drove one back in the early nineties in Europe ,a BBi that was hard to start and keep running till it warmed up ....after that with the exception of the clutch that felt like a bear trap and real hard to get used to because it was so heavy I found the seemingly stock injected car was tuned and modded in a way that surprised me because I would shift at 7500rpm while the engine was pulling way stronger up there than a couple of thousand lower in the power band and the car felt I could be doing 8k easily but on owners request I stayed at 7.5k. To this date I wish I knew all the details besides the comments made on pressure regulators adjusted for more fuel at full load. I do not recall if the car had different cams but I know it had engine work done by an expert Ferrari engine builder. I never found anyone that offered any gains on a stock car here worth the money. That car looked stock and it run on K jetronic. That experience stayed with me as it was very impressive and I recall thinking one does not need anything more than that out of a BB or BBi. Best part was we drove a 512 TR right after that car and the conclusion was easily and fast made to point at the BBi and say that is the real fun factor car hands down. Maybe the experts here can tell us how you do that with out going to a M engine or mess with at least the visible originality on one of these cars to get more exciting performance over stock I know for sure there must be a way to get the rpm up to 7.5k fast and furious. Mario
You can make the BBi spin to 7500rpm (lose the rev limiter) the question is where does the power fall off? The M engine with 4 valve heads, larger plenums, runners, Ti rods, higher compression, better heads, better in every way than a BBi engine and makes maximum power at 6750RPM. Thats as installed in a 512M with motronic engine management. It spins to 7500 no problem and feels like it doesn't stop pulling with the aftermarket EFI, no converters etc. I feel it could make power to 8K easily. My BBi engine will be far from stock but look stock. It has 512M rods in it, higher compression, cams and I will modify the CIS to deliver more fuel but im not getting carried away with other mods I could do to bring the power level even higher. These cars could use larger throttle bodies (which are integral with the lower half of the plenums) but you also have runner restrictions and the boxer headers suck, exhaust is heavy (80 lbs!). If it comes down to dollars vs power, bolt a 512M engine in and do circles around the modded BBi engine or BB engine for that matter because the M engine is such a bargain. The other factor is drivability. The M engine is so docile and effortless to drive yet its a monster when you want it to be. Based on my experience driving that Testarossa with the uncorked M engine in it I can say it just doesn't stop pulling. At 50mph in 4th the front end lifts when you jab the gas and the higher it revs the harder it pulls, 5th is no different its a repeat of 4th gear except you're getting up to some very serious speeds. Its awesome.
Carobu said they could tune a BBI motor up to about 400 hp. The limitation is as to how far you can go with cams because of the FI system. Even if you do all that you woudl have as you said a hard starting car, will be living with the weakness of the 2 valve system, heavy rotational mass and it will be ahot roded boxer not returnable to stock. Plus its going to be easily 50K. The M way, gets you a better motr, useable ac(hopefully) and the boxer mtor is kept for originality. My thoughts are that somewhere in time astock boxer with all its drawbacks is goig to be worths erious $$$. Maybe my chilldren will want to return it to stock, or sell all the bits to a stealer. Who knows. My guess is that the M concersion when all is said and done will not save any $$ over redoing the boxer mtor, maybe it will be more because you need a new clutch exhaust and awhole host of bits. Either way you have amoded boxer. Maybe a moded boxer with stock motor is less hassle and worth more, that si what some here seem to say. In any event we agree that a boxer that can make strong power all the way up the rev range growing in intensity is really what the car shouldbe. If you are just driving 75 mph to the next concors then I am sure no mods are necessary. But from my opinion, most boxer out there have played suspension brakkes busings improper FI operation etc, they run but they run like crap so to have agood boxer you sort of need to redo all this anyway. Lets not forget these are 30 yo cars thta have spent many years sitting.
