550 Engine Removal

Ron- Does that mean you have an oxide layer over the entire set of cooling system passages and hoses? In general, oxides are not good conductors of heat. Good in some places, bad in others.

Only 49 posts more before I hope this weird format goes away.

 

Taz,
It does say a "molecular thin" layer so I presume it acts like a protection barrier rather than something like a built up chemical deposition layer of oxide corrosion which would be more like micrometers thick. But we need a surface layer material scientist to comment more on this....

Anyway, take a look at what aging antifreeze does to your system (from No-Rosion website):
Q. Why is it necessary to flush a cooling system in the first place?

A. Without No-Rosion, it is necessary to flush a cooling system every year or two when traditional type antifreeze is used. Glycol in antifreeze breaks down over time to form glycolic acid that reduces the pH of coolant and causes corrosion. Byproducts of combustion also contaminate coolant, causing further acidic degradation of coolant. At these lower pH levels, tiny rust particles begin to form, and combine with silicates in antifreeze and hardness in water to form insoluble gels. The gels reduce coolant flow through radiator tubes and reduces the system's ability to transfer heat. Flushing removes harmful glycolic acid, combustion contaminants, and antifreeze gels.


Regards,
Ron

 

Ron- That may be, but it sounds like marketing hype to me.

 

Ron:

Know you've already moved on but I didn't want to leave you with a wrong stress # and have you worry.

I used the wrong d in the F equation. F=T/(K*d) is just an estimate of the clamping force based on bolt torque, nut friction and nominal bolt diameter. I used 8.25mm, which is the necked-down dia. 8.25mm is the correct d for the stress (P=F/A), but the bolt size is about 10mm. Using 10mm bolt size, K=.12 and 8.25mm neck-down for P, the estimated stress is 149 kps.

If you have chrome-moly bolts, your stress curve looks more like the blue curve. And, class 12.9 metric bolts have a min 160 kps YS. With those estimates, looks like it's okay to reuse the bolts, maybe even more than once.

Sorry to belabor the point, just kept thinking about it...

Regards....Mark

 

Ron,

There are very reliable sources who I respect who tell me not to use copper. I can't remember the reasons but breakdown of said product and coolant fouling was not one of them. That said I have rebuilt small numbers of ferrari motors and more other make motors and race some of those motors so I got some experience but it is not professional do it everyday experience which is more valuable than my own. That said I have used copper on every head I have ever done...period. I have never had a leak. Maybe I would never had a leak without copper too. I'll never know. Copper is just too simple to use and does not look like much so what the heck. I understand no negatives to using copper. There are several theorys on how it works, why it does not work, how it works for only a little while etc. There was some banter about these boards between a pro and a DIY guy regarding some headgasket weepage. In fact this weepage leak was quite substantial by the pics and even listed as OK in writing in the WSM. The theory is heat cycles HG swells and seals all is OK. The pro at the time was talking about leaking so bad in his experience that he could not even get the motors to heatcycle and then seal. If the copper allows us the ability to heatcycle the HG so that proper sealing can take place that's just another reason to use it. Of course there is the issue of Ferrari HG's now not working and SRI doing the redesign on the F40 iirc. And more banter about using non-ferrari gaskets like MLS cometics which I happen to have good luck with. There are those who do not like MLS either and they have good reasons. I may be just too ignorant of the reasons why they are a poor choice. That said using MLS changes the profile of gasket crush and now we are right back to bolt torques. This time head bolt torques. You see this can go on forever and give you a headache, but it sounds like you have a sound enough personality to have firm boundries in your head. Therefore, I suspect your car to be running sooner rather than later while we continue to debate these issues and hope for glimmers of truth to come from our resident pros.

 

FBB,
Thanks for your reply and the vote of confidence. Yes, I did see and note the discussion about heat cycles and agree that sounds like one good reason to give the copper spray a try.
Thanks,
Ron
PS "headaches and firm boundaries" - I will remember that for my other journeys in life, thought provoking comment.

 

Dear all,
Zipping along now, sump back on as well as the timing cover, not simple but doable, sort of Rubik's cube type of problem. I have used sealant on both sides of the gasket like Josh at ECS recommended.

The WSM 575 p236 has some additional info about checking the backlash on the driving gear with a dial gauge and adjusting the cover position to reduce backlash to less than 0.04mm, checking every 90 degrees of rotation. Has anyone checked and adjusted this? How does the adjustment work, by centralizing the gears by tapping on the cover from side to side?

I hear an occasional click from the driven oil pump , presumably normal if not yet full of oil?

Thanks,
Ron

 

I don't think copper spray will hurt, not sure it will help either.

Not worried about backlash on the gears. I have had many apart and never been an issue. You did not change any parts that will influence it.

On the oil pump drive. I would suggest a new chain if it has much slack. Those have been an issue on some cars and is in itself a reason not to use high vis oils and give the oil a little time to warm up. Have a good look at the 2 small bearings that support the oil pump drive shaft too.




And, like I told you earlier, slather up the rod bolts with a good grade of copper antisieze prior to torquing them. If no other source is easy, both Crower and Carillo supply it. Cover the threads and the flange under the head. Rod bolts on ti rods need lots of lube.

 

I checked the backlash and could not detect any play so seems fine.
After meditating on what they meant , it is the fact that the timing cog A on the crankshaft engages (intermeshes with) two driven cogs B and C - this is all hidden on back side of the timing cover. So with the cover on and the dial gauge resting on a tooth of one of the front timing belt cogs I looked for forward-backwards movement i.e. play by trying to move the front cog , nothing found or less than 1 thou.
Regards,
Ron

PS see Moorfan thread for pictures of this

 

Hi John, what's the difficulty with longer engines and sealing? I would've thought since each cyl has fasteners there would be no complications regardless of length.

 

Vin, the longer a head & block surface, the more difficult it is to maintain it flat & level for sealing. An inline six or eight is just not nearly as stiff a configuration as a V6 or V8.

Large industrial engines get around this problem by having individual heads and head gaskets per cylinder and the water jackets in the heads are interconnected with short stubby pipes. But big industrial engines don't have to contend with the tight bore spacings that we have with high performance automotive engines.

 

John and Vin,
And a V12 is just two inline 6's siamesed together, right? Well, I am sure there is quite a bit more to the design than that, and why use 65 degrees like the Jano designed Dino V-6?

If you love V-12 engines and their design and history check out this book

The V12 Engine: The Untold Story of Technology, Evolution, Performance and Impact of All: Karl Ludvigsen: 9781844250042: Amazon.com: Books

Regards,
Ron

 

Ron, that's a great book with lots of photos of various V12's, and it also answers that burning question "Why did Ferrari go with 65 degrees for the Vee angle, instead of the "correct" 60 degrees?" It also has an excellent discussion on cylinder numbering and firing orders at the very end, which I found very interesting.

 

Looks like a nice book. Cheapest I could find on abebooks.com was ~$45. Intake, my good man, intake. Took up less space than the contemporary 120 deg V6, too. Some of the F1 V12s had a 75 degree angle between banks.

 

Great job Ron! If only I had coated that gasket when I reassembled mine I wouldn't have the occasional oil drip running down my alternator bracket that I have

Regards,
Pete

 

Ron,

I’m not a surface scientist, but I am a Chem E (and avoided staying at the Holiday Inn). Boiling and cavitation are two entirely different things. The quote from the No-Rosion site sounds like they don’t know the difference between the two. When a liquid boils, its vapor pressure is equal to the environment pressure. Those little bubbles are basically full of vapor. In the diesel engines they are talking about cavitation used to be setup whenever you would have a wall that was too thin or a coolant passage with too high a velocity.

Cavitation occurs when the local pressure is very low, usually to high-speed flow past a surface. Those pockets are a vacuum and the inrushing liquid when the void collapses causes the damage to the surface. I’m not sure of any surface coating that can survive cavitation for long. There are uses for cavitation (breaking down suspended particles for paint production), but that equipment usually has a diamond-like coating, nitride layers or something to make the surface really hard and has to be replaced frequently. If this stuff really works, I’d love to get that coating inside several of the pump systems I’m dealing with now.

They may be confusing pitting corrosion with cavitation erosion. I could see pitting corrosion if the oxide layer is removed. Aluminum doesn’t like being in acidic conditions, so I could see a sodium nitrite acting like a buffer to keep the coolant pH up longer.

Then again, maybe I’m just reading too much into marketing speak.

Good luck with the engine build out!

Rene

 

Rene,
I too am not sure now a molecular thin layer can absorb high pressure jets, maybe molecular bonding forces are pretty strong and resilient?
Regards,
Ron

 

Taz,
Again spot on, yes one reason was larger intake sizing and longer runners.
Waiting for my V-12 book to arrive so I can learn more, my copy cost about $50 incl s/h, should arrive soon,
Ron

 

Now on to the hardest part, getting the engine to go back in The bottom chassis cross member is what spoils what should be a simple job, I am about 1/2" out in clearance of the rear, bottom engine flange. Trying to be very careful not to catch the pressure plate. Just fitting lower block without cylinder heads to make the fit easier to manage.

Yes, moving the drive shaft back would help but that is many more hours of work, crawling under the car. Looking for a creative "tip and slide" solution. Using engine hoist leveler to tip but that seems to prevent much lateral sliding.

Don't you just hate those "Pimp my Ride" TV shows where the engine just slips in with the help of 5 muscular-looking guys?
Regards,
Ron

PS Photos and description of the whole bottom end job will come later in a new thread

 

How was this detected or diagnosed?

 

So the short answer to avoid this is:

Low Silicate coolant, distilled water, water wetter, good pressure cap and annual changes.

 

LamboRider,

Symptoms were:
1. being outrun by a Lambo V12 since just running on 11 cylinders !
2. water in oil
3. rising oil level so oil being pushed out of valve (cam) covers
4. water shooting out of spark plug hole #11 during compression test

Distilled water is not recommended see No_Rosion web site Q&A. Link above.
Regards,
Ron

 

LamboRider,

Coolant maintenance and pressure cap are just part of the story:

FerrariDriver Dave put it very well when he said on page 10:

"I've been following this thread avidly. When I first saw the damage done to the liners I immediately thought of what I have read about cavitation damage in diesel engines, specifically in the Navistar 7.3 engines used in the Ford Excursion. These engines have a history of cavitation problems to the point that Ford has developed special coolant blends for them to help prevent cavitation.

I don't buy the lack of coolant maintenance theory as a causal factor, there are too many 550's out there that have not had proper coolant maintenance. I believe if this was caused by poor coolant maintenance people like Brian would have had some history on it.

Cavitation exfoliation is caused by the formation of small bubbles and the immediate implosion of the bubble. It's the formation of the bubble in the first place that we should be looking at.

Those bubbles are formed by a shock wave transmitted through the liner to the coolant. What caused the shock wave would be my avenue of investigation.

The first thing that comes to mind is pre-ignition or detonation. I'd be wanting to look for anything that might have caused long term detonation since this didn't happen overnight.

I do agree with Terry in that this looks like a "Perfect Storm" and is probably the result of a chain of contributing events. "

Notice his reference to pre-ignition as a possible contributory factor,
Ron

 

They say distilled water is only not recommended if 50/50 antifreeze is not used.

Of the several name brand antifreeze makers I have researched all said distilled should be used and RO was ok as well.

 

We have a long history of cars with detonation problems and no signs of cavitation damage.

Some models of Ferrari are famous for it. And we actually maintain cooling systems.