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550: tire interference and spacers

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by ze_shark, Apr 11, 2004.

  1. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    I definitely have a problem with the inner rear tires walls interfering with the wing inner wells. After several instances under brutal compressions in high speed highway curves, or under hard cornering, the marks are clearly visible on the tires. Occurs just as much is in normal and sports mode (stiffer damping supposedly).
    It's kind of surprising that I am the only one complaining but ...

    Since the wheels are quite 'in-board', has anyone tried spacers ?
     
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  3. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    What kind of roads / conditions are you on when this happens? I have yet to experience anything of the sort. Stock wheels? What tires?

    Also: do you notice a difference b/w sport and normal? I don't...

    --Dan
     
  4. Sfumato

    Sfumato F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,718
    Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, Anglesey, Wales
    Full Name:
    Angus Podgorney
    Yep. No problems, actually got them from Brad @ Evosport, board sponsor. I drive on fairly rough roads at speed, and I also like the fuller rear wheelwell.

    No rubbing with them, they are H&R 30mm spacers...bolt to disc, then wheel bolted to it. Weigh very little, and really only change offset. No increased wear of anything, and I have used spacers on a bunch of cars.

    Porsche uses same type on the TT, GT2/3. I have a set all around on my Z8, and it made a huge difference, surprised even me. Proba a bunch of people out there who don't like spacers, I didn't either until I tried the H&R's. And unsprung weight changes very little.

    Like your car, BTW, glad you're using it hard.

    BTW, stock size S-02's and factory modulars on mine...glad you reminded me, Dan ;)

    Lee
     
  5. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    @Sfumato 30mm ? That sounds like a lot, do you think that 10mm would do ? Did you do the change to make the wells look full, of because you had rubbing as well ?

    @Dan: nothing particular or out of the ordinary. I had quite a bit of it on sweeping highways in Italy (bridge joints under sustained lateral load), but I also get it when cornering reasonably hard on 2nd/3rd gear turns, or under straight accelerations with compressions.

    PZeros in OEM dimensions, std 18" wheels and recommended pressure, nothing exotic. Plain vanilla Maranello ...

    Anyone tried Hill Engineering's spacers

    A picture to illustrate:
     
  6. felix66

    felix66 Karting

    Feb 21, 2004
    175
    London

    I have Hill Engineering spacers on my 355 - they are great quality (as good as those I used on my 993T). I use 15mm I think they do 15, 20, 25 and 30mm spacers. I have the type with the lengthened bolts rather than bolt onto hub.
     
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  8. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    Shark: you sure your "geometry" is correct? Perhaps have the rears checked out (I know you did on the fronts - I did all 4 at once).

    Lee: 30mm does sound a bit large. Difference was material? I may do the same, then.

    --Dan
     
  9. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    The thing is, I can hear the buzzing. I don't see how rear train geometry could do that. No hint of excessive camber or anything.
     
  10. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    2 things:

    1) I have never heard of this happening on a 550. I track mine HARD all the time--no rubbing. What size tires are you using in the rear

    2) regarding spacers: spacers, esp. those >10mm, will put a whole lot more stress, pressure, and wear on your wheel bearings. Also, adding spacers = lowering the spring rates on that corner. Do you really want to do that??
     
  11. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    Good point about the spring rates, had not thought about this.
    The first thing I am going to do is call my dealer, the car is under warranty and this is unacceptable. Even if the springs were too soft and the dampers dead, the tire should not touch anything.
    Tires are PZeros, 295/18, std OEM, nothing exotic. Std 18" wheels too.
    Maybe there is a difference between model years ? My car is a 2001.

    I can see the area where the tire scrubs the interior of the rear wing, perhaps earlier cars had a different design. It seems that the wing interior is made of fiberglass or something similar, not sure if the mfg tolerances are that precise.
     
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  13. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    I have the same size tires / wheels (Rossos) around, I don't even see where it could be scrubbing (well, I mean, unless you REALLY tweaked it).

    Can you bounce the car by hand? How do the shocks respond when you lift the car? Silly simple tests, I know, but telling perhaps?

    This is definetly strange. Keep us updated.

    --Dan
     
  14. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest


    Dan, quick question: where did you buy your Rossos? Tire rack does not carry our sizes, IIRC.

    Thanks,

    Dave
     
  15. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    Dave,

    Call Mark @ 5 point tires. 650.365.0280. Ref to me. Mark is a GREAT guy and definetly knows his stuff. His shop's been around for ~40 years.

    I had gotten Assimetricos up front, and 2 weeks later decided to change the rears also. Pirelli hadn't any in our rear size, so they promised to send out a whole set of Rossos and swap the fronts for free.

    --Dan
     
  16. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    My case has been escalated to the tech dpt of Ferrari Switzerland, waiting to see what funky explanation they come out with ...

    A couple of pictures to illustrate where the interference is on both sides:
     
  17. stephens

    stephens F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Feb 13, 2004
    4,483
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Stephen S
    I have heard of problems with these bolt on spacers. I use the H&R 15mm which have longer bolts.
     
  18. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    News on the tire interference topic: the shock absorbers are supposed to have some kind of end of travel sponge cushions.
    Dealer found out today that my 550 happens to ... have none. Not readily visible because they are behind plastic housings. So as a result the suspension would travel all the way until the tire would touch the fiberglass housing of the well.
    I'll get pics.
     
  19. yfc

    yfc Karting

    Dec 23, 2003
    212
    Geneva / Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Christophe
    Hi Shark,

    Is it a joke?

    Are you saying that your car has been manufactured without this "sponge cushions"?

    Or did the Ferrari mechanical forgotten to re-install them after a service?

    Regards,
    Christophe.
     
  20. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 29, 2001
    17,088
    USA
    Full Name:
    Hugh G. Rection
    If this is going to be a "warranty" issue (sounds like it) I would demand new fender liners while you are at it....since yours are kind of marked up...what the heck.
     
  21. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    Of course, it's going to be a warranty thing, I did not even bother asking the question. Yes, the cushions were simply forgotten.
    I am not going to make a drama about the liners to be changed, prefer to spend my bullets on more important stuff rather making borderline unreasonable requests.
     
  22. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    Good of you to show such patience, but you also should make it clear that these kinds of omissions, if it can be called that, are NOT to be tolerated.

    --Dan
     
  23. ze_shark

    ze_shark Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2003
    1,273
    Switzerland (NW)
    The story gets even better.
    Spoke with the chief mechanic of my dealer about other silly problems. Told me incidentally that after they found out the parts were missing, they reported it to the factory.
    They were told that Ferrari actually had the VINs of a handfull of 550s (don't know how many) where the rear shock absorbers cushions had been "forgotten", and that they notified the dealers who had sold the cars (mine was originally sold by another dealer, Foitek near Zürich).
    Apparently Foitek was not overly diligent in chasing this issue OR the initial owner did not care, so the fix was not done on my car.

    While on the topic of quality control nonsense, I had a nice conversation with one of the oldtimers of the swiss Ferrari dealer network. He told me that the initial 456 demo cars had a design flaw on the hood hook. Rotation spring was simply too weak and would not always fully engage in the hood lock.
    During a test drive with a customer, the hood flipped up and slammed into the windscreen under wind pressure, breaking it. Could have been a dramatic accident, fortunately nobody was hurt. I don't know if the prospect was brave enough to order a car nonetheless.
    The factory commissioned a delegation of dottore's and ingegnere's to cross the Alps and come examine what came out to be a trivial design mistake.
     

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