575 manual watch, Europe

https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/ferrari/575/2002/473071?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Classic%20Driver%20Daily%202142017&utm_content=Classic%20Driver%20Daily%202142017+CID_9a0c42a24a5248c2dd04b0cd4177c70e&utm_source=newsletter

Offer side of this market remaining strong, how are the bids looking though?

 

I am currently in the market for one. The two that I am looking at have been on the market for at least 9 months, and since April the offers have come down about 15-20%. I am sitting on my hands, not wanting to catch a falling knife.

 

Darius reminded me of something I consider a bit of an interesting dilemma:

Retrofitting manual transmissions on F1 cars. Is it worth it, in terms of the investment required and future market value?

For instance: I'm an originality freak. I have certain question marks about a car that now has a different transmission type than the one with which it left the factory.

For all intents and purposes, isn't this the same as buying a non matching numbers car? If an engine is replaced, the car and its owner have a fresher engine, with less miles. In theory, it's all good! But in terms of value, it's nothing short of a complete disaster. A transmission change, in all truth and in practice, is that different from changing an engine in a market to aware of originality and compliance with factory specs?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these transmission transplants is done mostly in North America, due to the fact that manual cars are somewhat exquisite and culturally uncommon, whereas in Europe the difficult thing in some markets/models/brands, is to order a car with auto/semi-auto transmission.

I guess as long as manual transmission V12s continue to climb the ladder in terms of value, we'll see more of these transmission changes in Europe and everywhere else, as on paper it makes sense. And if the owner likes it and isn't inclined to sell, then why not? Otherwise, it is a speculative move. Nothing wrong with that to an extent, just calling it as I see it.

I do currently own a manual Ferrari and F1 Ferraris. I assume I have a strong preference for F1 gearboxes. The way I shift behind the wheel hasn't been that much of an issue in terms of the Ferrari ownership experience for me personally, in the sense that I consider it to be a much broader thing than just the way I shift up and down. But I do concede a shiny metal gearshift gate is iconic, and it's all but dead. As soon the naturally aspirated engine will be. And I don't like that. I believe thing's essence shouldn't be diluted and it is possible to adapt to new times without selling your soul or lose touch with your essence.

Taking into account several transmission changes that occured over the last half a decade or so, soon "official" production numbers from Ferrari will be nothing more than a mere estimate. It may be uncontrollable. Who knows at this moment in time how many manual 575 exist in Europe? And how can one tell which ones left the factory that way, and which ones had a transmission transplant? If value is linked to supply and demand, a change in supply (more manual cars) won't have an impact in sales figures?

As you can see, I have a lot of questions and virtually no answers!

Kind regards,

Nuno.

 

My guess, for what it is worth (probably nothing!) is that an F1 converted to manual by a reputable specialist (any potential buyer will need to be 100% convinced that it has been done properly, or he will likely walk away), will be worth a little more than an F1, but a lot less than a 575 manual. This may be particularly true in a market like the US, where so few manuals were originally sold; less so in the UK.

For about the same money, however, one could buy a 550, which IMO would be a more sensible purchase.

For someone wanting a manual 575 as opposed to a 550, a genuine 575 manual would obviously involve more outlay than converting an F1, but IMO would be a safer investment.

While on the subject of 575 gearbox conversions, what I would like would be an 575 fitted with a proper automatic gearbox (with paddles), like the one in my Maserati, to complement my 550 for when I am feeling lazy.

 

Nuno- Remember one thing, there is no difference in the transmissions of a manual 575M (or any other F1 Ferrari) and an F1 575M. Only the shifter and clutch mechanisms vary for the transaxle, plus a few plugged holes not needed in the manual 575M. So a properly done conversion will have the very same transmission she originally had. The VIN, however, will show which shifter and clutch actuator she had, as will a build or option sheet.

 

You're too kind, Darius.

Your analysis strikes me as very sensible, sharp and balanced.

Terry, thank you very much for your valued input! I was under the impression that differences between manual transmissions and early F1 systems was slim at best, but I didn't know both transmission types had so much in common. That being the case, it gets all the more tempting to opt for a conversion: technically/mechanically speaking, it's entirely fesable and in terms of a potential "investment", it does bring value, even though as Darius mentioned and I agree wholeheartedly, won't be able to rival with an originally manual car.

There are indeed a series of dilemmas that could affect the price of a manual 575 (and I chose the word "price" carefully, as in terms of value to its owner... I'd say priceless!):

1) 550 versus a converted 575?
2) Is the premium asked for a manual 575 worth paying versus landing a good deal on an F1 575 and converting the car to change gears manually?
3) Capital and patience no object, will a manual 575 fit the bill of manual 599 (the last manual 2 seater V12) seekers? (almost merely academical, as if I'm not mistaken, only 30 cars were built).

I did conduct a very brief search on known car search engines on the internet (Europe), and was shocked to learn the absolute disparity between manual cars, regardless of being advertised as private parties or multi-brand dealerships.

For instance, two manual cars head to head:

1) Built July 2003, Grigio, with 24.500km on the clock. Asking price: 99.000 EUR.

https://www.autoscout24.com/offers/ferrari-575-m-maranello-f1-gasoline-silver-662edd4a-cba8-8650-e053-e250040a5205?cldtidx=4

2) Built April 2003, Grigio, with 82.700km on the clock: Asking price: in excess of 200.000 EUR.

https://www.autoscout24.com/offers/ferrari-575-m-handgeschakeld-1-of-177-1-eigenaar-gasoline-grey-4a031aeb-3658-42f7-a8bd-accfcf8e96e5?cldtidx=20

They can't be both right. Even when considering other variables (accident records, maintenance, number of previous owners, etc), disparity is so big (one being more than twice as expensive as the other) that either one is a steal, or the other is incredibly overpriced.

Kindest regards,

Nuno.

 

Number 1 looks to be F1, hence the price differential.

 

John- Issue on both sides of the pond. F1 Ferraris advertised as manuals. Have to look at the photos to be sure.

 

Yes, but I just don't understand why they bother - nobody is actually going to be daft enough actually to buy an F1 under the impression that it is a manual, so why advertise it as what it is not? If you wanted to sell a cow, you wouldn't advertise it as a horse - it is a waste of the price of the advert.

 

Sounds a bit optimistic to me, given the mileage and LHD.

 

Was that the yellow one at Slades?

 

Just lurking here from time to time, so just FWIW:
There is a black on black one for sale in Paris, a LHD of course; has been for a few weeks already. 17.900kms, 269.000 euros asked.
Claimed to be "one of the 208 575 built with Manual transmission"

Rgds

https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/1137200819.htm?ca=12_s

 

Jut saying - the FI is not an automatic gearbox. As far as I am aware it's simply an electronic manual, with everything aside from the shift mechanism being exactly the same. I'd be interested in other members' views.

BTW the disparity in (asking) prices has been there - in the UK at least - for as long as I can remember. I think - and again this is personal opinion - that it's drive 50/50 by rarity and a fundamental misunderstanding that F1 boxed cars are 'automatics' (they are invariably described as such on sites like PistonHeads).

 

Robin- No views on this, it is a fact that the transaxle, clutch, and throw-out bearings (except seals) are identical for F1 and 3 pedal F1 Ferraris, including the 575M.

 

Guess you guys saw this ?
2003 Ferrari 575 Maranello | London 2017 | RM Sotheby's

 

That will be an interesting test of the current market, particularly as it is not a ridiculously low mileage example and there will be no question about the price because it will be public for all to see (unless it is sold prior).

 

Or if it doesn't sell...assume there's a reserve.

I looked at this car during my search, and appears to be a great driver and well cared for. Unfortunately, the price wasn't as realistic as the estimate now. But then, I did see another car with 52k miles & similar spec but in way worse condition, asking 30% more!

In the end, decided to go for a 550 as the 575 manual premium just wasn't worth it for me for the marginal performance increase having tested both.

As you say, will be interesting.