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6-speed lovers: Have you grown to love paddle shifts?

Discussion in '360/430' started by hifipj, Nov 12, 2009.

  1. hifipj

    hifipj Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2009
    402
    Hi,

    This forum has been an invaluable source of info for prospective Ferrari purchasers like myself, and the knowlege and help shared here is second to none. Now that I'm very close to making a purchase decision, I need the advice from those who have been in this position.

    I owned a Black/Tan Testarossa for 6 years or so, and absolutely loved it. One of the things I loved most was rowing through the gated shifter. Once you got comfortable with it, it was second nature. And to me part of the sports car driving experience is the additional control and communion with the machine that a manual gearbox affords.

    That said, even though it may be a buyer's market now, locating a clean, fairly low mile, no stories, in desirable color combo (e.g., red/tan) 6-speed 360 for a reasonable price is almost a Herculean task. Let me explain what, to me, is a reasonable price. I am looking for a car that is in very good condition, not concours. A car that is nearly fully depreciated so that the loss taken on an eventual sale is minimized. More important is service history and longer terms of ownership. I am looking to keep the car for 1-2 years and then sell it when I have enough saved for a 430. To me, in the current market, very good condition '99 and '00 examples can be found in the mid 60s to 80k range. Now, I've been watching the 360 market for a LONG time (over a year) as I've been saving. And I have spoken to members here who have recently picked up 6-speed '99-'01 clean 360s. I see an interesting trend in the market: despite the fact that F1 tranny cars cost $10k more when new, it is now the 6-speeds that are commanding a premium in the used market, and not an insubstantial one. All other things as equal as possible (year, mileage, services done, condition), a 6-speed 360 seems to sell for between 10k-15k more than a comparable F1 car. I could provide about 8 examples of this with recent sales (the car I am considering included). Bottom line is, there are far fewer 6-speeds available, and many F-car enthusiasts like the manual gearbox as I do.

    So, back to the point. I have found a 360 I like very much. It has everything I am looking for in a 360, with one big exception - it's an F1 paddle shift. Has had a new clutch in the last 1000 miles, so that's not an issue. And, it costs over 12k less than what similar 6-speed cars have sold for. What is an issue is the driving experience of the car. (I know there was a 'which is more fun' thread on this earlier, very interesting.)

    What I am looking to hear from, are owners who, like me, loved the 6-speed gated box of their Ferraris, but have since gone to paddle shift cars and have found the driving experience equally rewarding. Or on the other hand, have chosen a paddle shift car and have been sorry they did so, maybe even to the point of selling their F1 car to change it for a 6-speed. So, tell me F1 owners, have you come to love those little paddles and learned to live without the 3rd pedal? Or as a former 6-speed lover, is it penny wise and pound foolish to save some money but compromise driving involvement? Opinions on both sides are welcome!!!

    Patrick
     
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  3. blkdiablo33

    blkdiablo33 F1 Rookie

    Jul 12, 2004
    3,426
    all of my previous cars were manuals,now i have a paddle and i love it.
     
  4. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
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    #3 cwwhk, Nov 12, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
    Get a stick. All three versions of 360 F1 systems (ie. Modena, Stradale, and Challenge) are quite slow.

    If you must switch to a F1 shift system, then go for 430 or newer iterations. To give you perspective on my view, I currently own 360 stick and 430 F1 for street, 360 Challenge F1 spare car at track and 430 Challenge F1 modified to GT3 spec for active racing.
     
  5. forgeahead

    forgeahead F1 Rookie
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    Sep 16, 2008
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    I agree. IMO, the 360 is well suited to a stick as the iteration is not quite as refined as the later models (430, etc.) In the 430, the shifts are so fast and smooth, it actually adds a dimension. My 360 is an F1 and I have a ball with it. However, I would have certainly pulled the trigger on a stick if all else was right. I would not perconally consider a 430 stick.
    Regardless of what you get, drive it like it was meant to be driven!

    Ray
     
  6. hifipj

    hifipj Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2009
    402
    #5 hifipj, Nov 12, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
    But the question is: would you be willing to pay a 12-15k premium for the 6-speed over F1 shifting? Perfect example, Ferrari Maserati of New England just listed a beautiful, very clean '00, 13k mile, red/tan 6-speed. Asking price? 89,900. Now, I know from others' experiences here that the real market price for this car is closer to 80-82k. However, it's possible to get an equally nice F1 car, with just a few thousand more miles, for about 20k less than the asking price for this 6-speed!

    Even if the car is negotiated down to 81-82k, there's still a $12,000 premium on the 6-speed car. Who here, with experience with both, thinks it's worth it?
     
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  8. RSQP

    RSQP F1 World Champ
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    Never had a 6 speed F-car, but I've done the 6 speed manual via Porsche GT3s and switching from the stick to the paddle is incredible. I really don't want to go back to a manual. It really is that good. You have all the control of the car as you would with a manual.
     
  9. f355red

    f355red Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2005
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    todd tanner
    i have had both. a 6 355, f1 360, 6 575 and now a 6 430. the 360 shift was ok but not as smooth as the 430 f1. i still enjoy the gated shifter too much. thats just my thoughts. if you are going to track the car a lot then you may want the f1, but for typical fun you cant beat the 6 speed. and the clutch is more durable as well

    good luck
     
  10. CChung

    CChung Karting

    Dec 10, 2003
    244
    Southern California
    There has been SOOOO many threads on F1 vs. 6-spd manual that if you do a search it'll take you a day to read through all of them. I have a 6-spd '08 manual 430 coupe and I'm glad to see there is actually a premium on manual cars! In a nutshell, if you plan to track the car the F1 is the way to go. If you plan to just drive it around town and use it as a weekend car and not really do any mountain or track driving, such as myself, the manual is the way to go as it gives more driver involvement which is needed when one doesn't plan to track the car. Yes, I pretty much baby my car and that's why I'm glad I insisted on getting a stick so it will give me more fun rowing through the gears when I knew I would never see a racetrack. I've never driven a 360 so I can't tell you of any differences, though.
     
  11. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 TheMayor, Nov 12, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
    I've had a 246 Dino and 2 308's. Sure, I like the stick. But, the box in my 2008 F430 F1 is also amazing on a different level of driving.

    It's not for everyone but I like it. I think the Italia's 7 speed will be another quantum leap. The speeds they are talking about in testing are incredible and due to a large part to the gearbox.
     
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  13. sezme

    sezme Formula Junior

    Oct 23, 2006
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    I have other cars with a stick - but LOVE my paddles on the CS. I could never see the car having anything other....
     
  14. alex550575430

    alex550575430 Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2009
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    LOS ANGELES, CA
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    LIN ALEX

    Agree!!! I have also the F430 coupe in stick, and 360 Challenge race car which is not street legal only coming in F1. For street driving where all traffic law applies the stick is more fun and enjoyful to go around any speed and moving that stick up and down through gears. The F1 is particularly fun at the track where you care for that 1 second difference in lap time and trying to drive the car quicker and quicker for shorten the lap time, than the F1 works.

    Alex
     
  15. jjsaustin

    jjsaustin Formula Junior

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    #12 jjsaustin, Nov 12, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
    You know, I hear people all the time say the 360 shifting is slow. The shift time at 8000 RPM is 150ms. I don't think many people are shifting a manual faster than that. Even if you were, what might you save 25ms?? It takes 300ms to blink your eyes.
     
  16. raywong

    raywong Formula Junior

    Aug 29, 2004
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    Raymond
    The F430 might be the last of the manual transmittion model. it might worth more in the future.
     
  17. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 TheMayor, Nov 13, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
    Only IF anyone in the future knows how to drive a stick anymore.

    If someone never drove a stick in their life, are they going to want to buy super car with a gearbox that they need to be trained on?

    I don't think so.

    No one lusts for a car with a crank starter. It would scare the heck out of me to even start one. For many in the future, the stick will seem just as old fashioned someday. And, that someday is not that far away...

    For all the belly aching about the manual going away... every Enzo, every CS, every Scuderia, and every 16M was made with an F-1. Yet, we still consider these terrific machines we all lust for.

    To me, the idea of an Enzo without an F1 is just as abhorant as some thinking there will be no 6 speed manual in a 458.
     
  18. hifipj

    hifipj Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2009
    402
    I need to rephrase the question. Because, of course, everyone here has varying levels of income. My use will be 98% for pleasure, going for drives in the country simply to enjoy the Ferrari driving experience. I hope to take it on a track at maximum 1-2 times per year.

    To those who have experience with both: would you pay one month's wages, an entire month of your salary, for the premium to own a 6-speed over an identical F1 car?
     
  19. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    I really don't understand your question. Do you want to shift faster with less effort or enjoy doing it yourself? Only you can know that.

    For the price of the car, a few grand differnce between the two should be the least of your worries.

    Buy what you want and forget what we tell you.
     
  20. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
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    Yes I would pay the price difference to buy what I want, but your perception of value for money can only be answered by yourself.
     
  21. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

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    True different people have different performance expectations. For me it's not a question of being able to manually shift faster than a slow F1 system.

    I derive pleasure from old school manual shifting through the gates with heel & toe rev matching. Blindingly fast new generation F1 systems also give me thrills. IMHO 10 year old F1 shift technology offers neither.
     
  22. andrew911

    andrew911 F1 Rookie
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    #19 andrew911, Nov 13, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
    Phrased that way the answer becomes easier for me- yes.

    I have been dreaming and saving for years, and there was no way I was buying an F1 360. As good as the F1 is, the shifting is so much a part of what a ferrari is to me. The light flywheel in the ferrari's make heel and toe downshifting an awesome experience, and the exposed shift gate looks awesome to boot. I probably paid a little more, and did have to buy the car from 1,200 miles away, but the stick was that important to me. But to each his own....an F1 360 is an awesome car- just not for me.
     
  23. andrew911

    andrew911 F1 Rookie
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  24. andrew911

    andrew911 F1 Rookie
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    #21 andrew911, Nov 13, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
    And I agree with this statement...for the level of performance that is expected of something like an enzo (which is the cutting edge of technology and performance), it would be strange to have a stick! I've driven an Enzo and the F1 suits the car well. Yet for the "lower range"/ mid-engine 2 seaters where people may want a different experience (i.e. the 360/430/458) I am very disappointed that the stick will be going away with the 458.
     
  25. hifipj

    hifipj Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2009
    402
    So, nobody so far who was formerly a Ferrari manual 'box diehard, who got an F1 car and has come to love paddle shifters (for driving enjoyment, not taking into account tracking or ease of use for the lazy)???

    I understand it's quite improved with the 430, but I'm interested in opinions about the older F1 system of '00 vintage (assuming TCU update).

    BTW, for me the 360 is an intermediate step until I have saved enough for my ABSOLUTE (achievable) dream car, that being a red/tan, 6-speed 430 coupe. And for my future 430, I would ONLY buy it in a manual. But for the price difference now, and also considering resale loss over a 2-3 year timeframe (I feel a very clean, serviced, 16-20k mile '00 F1 at 68k ish is nearly fully depreciated), I am still torn about getting F1 for my 360.
     
  26. andrew911

    andrew911 F1 Rookie
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    #23 andrew911, Nov 13, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
    Maybe I didn't focus on the background of your initial post enough (i.e. your "master plan of a 430") when I gave my thoughts, and I assume you haven't done a PPI on the F1 car yet, but if it is gets a good PPI and has nice options, well heck $68K is a very good price for what is an awesome car.... decisions decisions- enough to drive any of us crazy!
     
  27. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #24 TheMayor, Nov 13, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
     
  28. andrew911

    andrew911 F1 Rookie
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