'64 250 GTO damaged at Goodwood Revival 2016

Frankly, I have never met a laid-back (at least not at the track) race car driver who was any good. Maybe because racing is a solitary experience, it brings out the competitiveness in all of us.

 

BTCC is known for lots of pushing and banging . It seems to be as integral a part of the show as fighting is in North American hockey. It seems that nobody told Shedden that he's not supposed to drive the way we drives at his day job...

 

I wasn't addressing the psychology or motivation behind the need to win, although every one of the owners/drivers is a winner in their business/life. So, it stands to reason that they want to be a winner on the track, too. Which is understandable.

I meant it more in the vein of it became a spending game. If you wanted to be at the front of the pack. And, few wanted to be at the back of the pack. I'm talking about hot-rodded motors, improved suspensions, altered transmissions, new brakes, carbon body work, power steering, and on and on.

And, when Classiche was introduced, some of these cars shouldn't have passed inspection. Yet, they did.

CW

 

I think Pete was referring to the pass for the lead where Shedden's Jaguar clipped ex F1 driver Guido Van der Garde in a Cobra sending the latter into a spin. The GTO was hit by another Cobra driven I think be another AM driver Bill Shepherd.

I'm not sure whether it is a good or bad idea to have the Pros driving, but Goodwood is primarily in the entertainment business with around 210,000 people through the gates of this year's Revival. Many of those spectators want to see the star drivers in the cars so I don't see it changing any time soon.

 

Most GTOs if not all are rebodied or have major body parts exchanged.
4091, 3809, 3505, 4757 and the list goes on.
I could count to 39....

 

Yes, 4399 received a new body. From Scaglietti. In 1964, IIRC. It may have had other repairs done along the way, too, of course. And, this is but one more repair.

I'll address your other comments separately.

CW

 

Quite right. My mistake. I've seen so many videos in the past few days that they all kind of blur together. But, in my defense, I did post a video in which a Jag E type nearly collided, under braking, with the same GTO. Must have been quite a show for the spectators. One close call, and another incident!

CW

 

Well, what I mean is is THIS (as in original panels v. non-original) the determining factor between putting these cars at risk or not? I asked a question. I wasn't making a statement. And, everyone is free to comment on it. As several have done. And, I note that you quote several three posters in five total posts. So, there may be other points of view. In fact, I have said (and continue to say) race them. I race ours.

And, in my post that you quote, I certainly do acknowledge the point of view of preserving originality. I'm not necessarily saying I subscribe to it, though. It was in response to another post saying that the American mind-set boils down to monetary value. Which, I suggested wasn't exactly what the issue was.

As far as I'm concerned, if Bryan wants to drive his car at 8/10ths, that's fine with me. Who am I to tell him to do differently? Yet, let's say someone decides to have a late go into a corner at a track event and there's contact. Certainly avoidable and unnecessary. But, the car is on a live race track. Stuff can happen. Stuff will happen. The only way to preserve the car is simply not to put it in harm's way. Ever. Even then, bank vaults can fall out of the sky. Originality lost. C'est la vie. Life goes on. There's still a car, and it can be repaired.

But, to come back to the monetary loss issue, it's almost as if there are two different ways of thinking about it. In the post-Classiche world, there's an absurd emphasis on "originality", which I still feel Classiche has its' own shortcomings. And, for decades, these cars often went raced, damaged, repaired and then sold WITHOUT so much as a thought to the fact that a panel here or there wasn't fabbed by the factory. Then, out of the blue, Classiche starts issuing edicts about cars saying, "not original." And, the next thing you know, there's a premium for Classiche cars and, possibly, a discount for non-Classiche cars. So, it seems that the preoccupation with originality really started when SpA itself decided to get in on the game by pontificating about things they didn't even care about. Until then, when you bought one of these cars, the players all knew one another (Bardinon sells to Sachs who then sells to Wang) or you hired an expert/agent to assist and advise on the purchase. What, if anything, did these experts say about a panel that was original? The car is what it is. It's a lump of metal. It gets repaired. It goes on. GTOs have been trading for millions for more than a decade, yet originality hasn't really seemed to hold back their values. Now, it's almost heresy to damage an original panel!

But, I'm also trying to distill the argument down to the essence, and it seems to me that this is there the line is forming up:

Original panels = protect and preserve. If so, how much should/must be original for it to be declared un-riskable?

Non-original = have fun.

We're also talking about people having opinions who don't necessarily own these cars. If Bryan wants to take his car out and go 10/10ths, that's still his business and not anyone else's. If he wants to park it in his living room, that's fine, too. But, people get their knickers in a twist when someone has the nerve to go have some fun in their own car and it gets damaged, too.

I think this is merely an interesting exercise and discussion. Nothing more. I don't expect the Historic racing world to take note or make changes as a result of it. However, it's interesting to note that at such an important event as Goodwood, there are, if I understood the comments correctly, lots of replica/tribute cars, and maybe not so many original cars.

CW

 

I do agree that SpA saw an opportunity to make a buck and took advantage of it, but I go back to my own experiences buying sports car BEFORE Classiche (yet after 1984). I don't recall that we paid any extra attention to (or paid a premium for) "originality." Or, if there was, it wasn't a meaningful difference. We confirmed that the s/n was appropriate. We confirmed that the frame was not bent. We confirmed that it was a proper motor. We inspected for crash damage (as evidenced by repairs). But, old race cars were crashed and repaired, so what could be learned was only that it had been damaged and repaired. This might then launch us into a series of new questions (how damaged, when damaged, repaired by whom, etc.). But, I don't ever recall saying, this isn't an original panel, so there's a huge differential in pricing. It's one of the known 250GTOs, for example.

Let me pose it another way: if 3445 were offered today, would it have a problem selling despite the damage? Would 4399? Would they be "discounted?" We know that there was lots of "originality" removed from Lauren's 3987 when he did what he did. Will it sell for more or less as a result?

CW

 

I agree with your sentiments but would like to add that where a car has lost the original bodywork, next best scenario is a perfectly executed/ restored replacement is unlikely to affect value by that much, maybe (20%). Perversely it allows the buyer of such cars the ability to track without concern for the original bodywork. I do love the sales language of cars like these where they use terms such as fully restored bodywork rather than entirely new but that's another topic. It all depends on taste of course but even the least valuable GTO would have to be $30+ million and the most maybe $60?

 

Thanks for the great discussion. I have enjoyed reading it and examining my own biases and opinions.

I also love the pictures, especially the one from Nurburgring 1965.

 

I have been at it some time longer and in the old days worked for 2 different companies in Berkeley that were well known in the restoration biz and several GTOs among other things went through. Original sheet metal was absolutely revered. The panel beaters hated fixing old metal and swore every minute they were required to do it. Sheet metal was only replaced when it go so thin repair was just dumb.

 

No you couldn't. Come on, Tom. This is Vintage. 36.

 

In any other race meeting Sheddon would have been up before the stewards but as you say it is more about entertainment than fairness. Hart and Van der Garde drove their socks off and were robbed of a podium finish by a calculated and cynical move.

You really have to experience historic racing and Goodwood to comment here. The vast majority of the drivers respect their and others cars and do not want to end up with an expensive repair bill. Generally speaking the problems are generally caused by the "professional car drivers" driving someone else's car that do not appreciate they are sitting behind the wheel of something old, very valuable and without ABS brakes

 

Pete, I was about to reply before i read what you wrote, and I read your most gentlemanly retraction.

No need to apologize, albeit your comment is very well received and deeply reflects the modern hazards, of electronic communication....
And, you are absolutely right, at times we get a bit too enthusiastic...

No harm done, and all friends as before, yet, I still insist....no, just fooling around

Kind regards, Alberto

PS. Just for your amusement, I have been racing for a few days, and abhor dirty driving, on the road or the track.

 

Sure, price is what someone will pay for it. There is ONE person out there in all the world who will pay more than everyone else for it. Still, you have to find that person. And, that person may not come along (today or ever). But, any seller and buyer negotiate a price that's agreeable to both of them. Or, a deal is not struck. Do I think an all original paneled car is worth more than a re-paneled one? Probably. But, again, it's dependent on buyers and sellers finding an agreed-upon price. Plenty of deals blow up due to unreasonably high asking prices. Or unreasonably low offers. And, the two parties cannot come together.

Regarding 3445, specifically, I, too, knew an owner and spent time around this particular car. Never once were panels mentioned, discussed or lamented. There was never a "discount" applied by this owner, as far as I know, relating to the value due to panel replacement. If anything, condition played the biggest role at the time of his acquisition. It has since been refreshed by the current owner, I believe.

Where we may be somewhat in disagreement is that at any given point, there's a limited number of buyers for a GTO. And, a selling price (and value) will depend on who's in the market for one. When you get to the stratospheric prices these cars are now commanding, there are, really, just a limited pool of buyers. Would 3445 sell for less or more than 3851 (the ex-Violati car)? Or, any of the others? Maybe. But, again, it's going to boil down to demand. There are only so many of these cars. And, if you want one, you're going to have to pay up to be a member of the club. What's the value of the panels? Completely and totally subjective to the buyer and seller. Maybe a premium on that day. Maybe not. The market for a VERY expensive Ferrari can be fickle. But, can we agree that there are probably a small handful of buyers ready and willing to pay for a GTO should one come up. So, arguably, there's a floor in value at a given point in time. Of course, as times and buyers change, tastes change and values rise and fall. If some billionaire MUST have 3445 (and ONLY 3445), because the color matches his wife's eyes, then who knows what it might sell for. All it takes is one...

As for your experiences, I can't comment. All I can say is that my experiences have been somewhat different. Do mine go back as far as yours? I get that we're of the same era, so maybe. But, again, it's our experiences that play roles in forming our views. They probably partly explain my lack of concern for original panels: because it was never a major factor for us in valuing a car in an acquisition. Whereas, for you, based on your experiences, it was. And, so it is now, too. And, that's fine. But, I also think your own commentary reinforces the belief. So, when you say you advised people way back when on originality, maybe that's played some part in us arriving at this discussion. And, once the seeds are sprinkled out there, they take on a life of their own. But, I'm not passing any judgment on the right or wrong of it, either. A buyer is free to value an asset however they wish. And, if it's important to them, fine. If it's not, fine. There are all kinds of buyers out there, and they may all have different intentions.

Regarding Classiche, however, consider how the factory and RM run an auction in which only Classiche-certified cars are offered. This instantly created a stratification within the community and arguably pressured owners who wanted to sell (At all? Or, just for a premium?) into getting a certification. Again arguably, Classiche's certification functioned as a stamp of approval by the factory. Now, did they care that they may have been taking out lots of history? Not really. Consider a breadvan. When Classiche was introduced, the breadvan would have been stripped of its' body by Classiche and taken back to an SWB body, I assume. It would have been a non-original body. But, it has Classiche certification. The thinking at Classiche has now evolved some, so I don't think they'd still do that today, but it's undeniable that a breadvan did not leave the factory gates so configured. And, I also know that Classiche has certified cars it should not have. Mistake or politics? Regardless, should a car re-bodied by Classiche sell at a premium or discount to a repaired-in-period car? Again, I suppose it will depend on the buyer and seller. But, I'd rely more on what an expert like Marcel has to say about a specific chassis' history than does Classiche. No one is perfect, though, and even the experts don't know everything, either.

As for judging originality, I think it's an interesting point you raise. Consider that only within the last 10 years (certainly within the last 15) has there been the creation of an essentially unrestored class at a place like Pebble. If anything, until that point, people were looking for old, un-restored cars, acquiring them and then sending them off to high-end restoration shops where they were disassembled and made "perfect." In the case of Ferraris, many that went through this process were improved from when they came off the line at the factory. A certain fashion designer's cars are famous for this. Maybe there's some difference in a worn-around-the-edges, older street car and a ratty, discarded race car, though? The purpose of a race car was to win races. By definition, it would be flogged in a race. Stuff got damaged. And repaired for the next race. As pointed out, of the 39 GTOs, how many really, truly have original panels left? I don't know, but I'll bet a good number of them have had work done to them. So, does a judge think about a street car and a race car the same way?

CW

 

I'd bet that each and every high-end shop has the capability of doing metal work. For a reason. I can understand saving original panels, if they can be saved. But, not every panel on every car can be this way.

Does a new panel change how we think about the originality (and value) of an entire car? Original panels certainly can't hurt the value, but do they significantly boost it?

CW

 

I'm curious where the line of originality is drawn with respect to race cars that were crashed and repaired repeatedly IN PERIOD. If a factory Ferrari race car was crashed and the factory performed repair involved new sheet metal, is this new sheet metal considered original or non-original? To me, a repair like this (assuming it did not impair the dynamic characteristics of the car) makes the car more interesting but I have no idea how the market views it...