7 mid engines.

Voting done. Remember that this is approximately 250-300 voters and not necessarily a true perfect sample.

The 458 Speciale dominates all with a considerable amount of votes. Even if you add up both a coupe and a spider from the same model type, the Speciale still comes out ahead.

A strong preference for the coupe vs. spider with Pista. That was opposite with the 296 and about equal with the F8 models.

One thing I found interesting was that the total votes for Pista were 80 and for F8 models at 40 and for 296 for models at 55. The voters think the Ferrari poster of turbo v8 will be the Pista. I wonder how this will play out in market pricing.

I also asked myself whether the 296 GTB would close the distance with its GTS relative .in the future. I say this as Pista Spider carries higher aftermarket prices now and was much more talked about than the coupe and desired over until the F8 was announced.

In any case, to me, the Speciale’s huge win represents the fact that it really is NA (sound, etc), and the other cars are turbos at are beginning of the “assisted power unit.”

So we have three eras listed: NA, turbo NA, and electric turbo NA. And turbo NA now looks like a quick intermediate step as it only has 2 models (Pista and F8). How long are we.going to be in electric turbo NA power train era?

 

GIven the integration of turbo and electric I have in my 296, you have a real and true point.

 

Continuing on about adopting hybrid tech. I had to go look at the stated reason. And the reason underneath it all. (may have errors. please correct).


Sometimes engine tech filters down from F1. First, from 1980-1988, F1 engines were turbocharged. For power, not for the environment or regulatory. The teams just wanted more power. Turbo was then banned again in 1989. From 1990-1995, F1 engines were at 3.5L, NA. By the end of 1995, Ferrari had the most powerful NA V12 with 850HP @15,800 rpm. Most powerful to date. The engines were reduced to 3.0L

From 1999-2005, NA still and with 3L. Even with displacement down to 3L, the V10 engine is shown as 'the' engine. Toyota's V10 with 1,000 bhp, and Ferrari with 940hp at a mind-boggling @19,000 rpm. This is just NA.

From 2006-2013, NA ...max 2.4L with a minimum weight of 209lb. The 2006 season had an engine with well over 20,000 rpm (Cosworth V8, Renault, Honda kinda)

Variable valve timing was then made illegal.

In 2009, electric emerged with KERS (regen brakes). Only Ferrari, Renault, BMW, and McLaren used it. In 2010, all teams agreed to not use it. In 2011, all BUT 3 teams used it. Engines were still spinning at 18,000rpm.

2014-2021: blah: FIA changed the 2.4L to a 1.6L V6 hybrid. They allowed kinetic and heat ERS. Turbo was now reallowed. Fuel flow restrictions were introduced. Engines rarely spun at about 12,000 rpm. Power about 900-1000hp.

2022-> still 1.6L. But the setup is more advanced hybrid. Just in time to match the road-car hybrid market.

I found this article from 2010, https://newatlas.com/formul-1-going-hybrid-16-litre-turbos-kers--and-compound-turbocharging-too/17212/

It's quite interesting as it points to why F1 went from great sounding NA engines to the turbo hybrid ERS small displacement lower RPM of today.
First, the article states that FIA wants a "green sport" that matches where "road cars are going." Also, there was a discussion that car manufacturers who were not in F1 have had spent an incredible amount of money to get into F1 and had won zero races.

So to get these manufacturers who were not usually F1 players into the game, they had to fit into the picture of "green" because that's where these other non-F1 manufacturers were going. Like Toyota, etc. This would also bring in a lot more sponsorship $ into the sport.

Importantly, it brought Liberty Media into the sport several years later in 2017. Being a media company, they want as many ads and sponsorship $.
So more $ from more road car manufacturers makes them happy. Which leads to a bland engine sound.

Liberty is also behind the push of F1 into Miami and Las Vegas. How surprising.

So road cars are going the same path as F1 engines. For "green" reasons. To make more ad $ from new sponsors. Also, to bring new, large manufacturers to help their brands. All of this by diluting the brands. But there has been real tech development on power.

Still, friends of mine who used to watch 2000-era F1 miss the NA engine sound. People who have only watched Drive to Survive, don't know. And may not care. Maybe Ferrari's new sound patent will be helpful. Or maybe iPod earphones where you hear the "Hotbar" true NA exhaust sounds and radios from cars. Add $10 to your Liberty Media ticket for the "be there" experience.

Also, I am pretty amazed by 20K rpm in 2.4L NA engines putting out 1000HP. Can we have that in a 296?

Thanks for reading this long post.

 

Some additional context on players in F1 and their reaction to reduced sound in the cars below. The only one with a hard stance for sound was Ecclestone. The team boss didn't really care about "green." Any manufacturer that sold to a mass market of consumers and was selling "green" world did car and pushed for a hybrid 1.6L. So they pushed the sponsors. Which pushed the team bosses. So this is why we have a hybrid as well.

1) Honda's return to F1 and the "regulation changes were 'central' to its participation." They (Honda) specifically state, "The new F1 regulations with their significant environmental focus will inspire even greater development of our own advanced technologies."
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/22551204

It also mentions that Toyota, Hyundai, VW/Audi/ and Ford are rumored to be returning. Yea sure. It's a good article.

2) F1's Ecclestone going ballistic about the sound of V6. He says 'he was "horrified" by the noise produced by the new Formula 1 engine, or to be more precise, the lack of it. They don't, he says, "sound like racing cars." ' Lauda says the opposite. "The discussion around the engine noise is ridiculous."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/26666624#:~:text=Bernie Ecclestone says he was, of the season last weekend.


3) Renault threatens to leave F1 " threatened to quit F1 if the sport did not introduce a new formula that reflected the greater efficiency now popular in road-car power-plants." McLaren's boss Bouiller: "Boullier pointed out that the engines mirror the direction of the road-car industry and had been embraced by manufacturers." "Mercedes executive director (business) Toto Wolff said: "This is modern technology, this is where road cars are going."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/26656258

The more I looked, the more I found. The drivers have mixed viewpoints. I am not sure they have power in this equation.

So, where will F1 tech take mid-engines and their sound? And what will wind up in the mid-engines? I am watching.

 

The generational aspect I can relate to. In 2000 (lol), I bought my first car from Ferrari, a 6-speed 360. It was a rainy day, and the salesperson wanted to see if I was interested in an F40. He said it was "it's $375,000." The 360 was in the $200s... So we went for a ride in both. He got pretty nervous when I was driving the F40 in the rain, on a highway, for most of the drive in the boost or in/out of the boost level. He was quick to point out the next exit on the highway. I didn't love driving it. I did not like having to keep the F40 in the boost the whole time to drive it the way I wanted. Just my own thing.

When we got back to the dealership, he also had an F50. I looked inside it, and he told me about the V12 and I instantly liked it more. lol! He told me it was sold already. I asked him what the price was, and he said something that sounded a bit ridiculous to me then. It was $700K here in silicon valley in that IPO'd year of 2000. Since then F50 has always stuck in my mind.

Since then, I have progressively chased the F50 up in price over and over and over, thinking that in my next bid anywhere, I would get the right price because the car's price is too high. Big, big mistake!

So yes, my generational car is that V12 NA F50. Right now, I am waiting for the economy to crater a bit so I can buy one at a much lower price! Again. Lol!

 

Thank you, and good to hear from you! I appreciate your post and involvement. We are now verging into F1 engine knowledge that is above my pay grade. So it is great that you are here. I will use my improvised and patched-together information below.

I wanted to add something to the discussion, so I did some online reading. I saw that the 053 engine was in the 2004 car and the 055 was in the 2005 car. I couldn't find where the 054 was used, so I would ask you what car it was on. The 053 was still a beast with 920hp; the 055 with 940hp. So it's pretty easy to say that 054 would be in that incredible zone. The easiest-to-read URL I found with the information was: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ferrari_V10_engine .

I learned a lot from https://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/ . The headline states that the web pages cover all cars for all teams for all years. Of course, with the assumption of correct data. For the Toyota 2004 chassis of TF104, they list the RVX-04 with an HP of "Around 900 bhp."

Now for a serious twist. In 2007, Toyota was found guilty of espionage of Ferrari intellectual property that started around 2003. It was related to wind tunnel/aero testing and the engine. It was two former Ferrari employees. This started because of the similarities between Toyota's TF103 car and the Ferrari F2002's 051 engine. The two guilty Toyota engineers did jail time!

So, I need to tie this back to our mid-engine talk. These large car manufacturers will jump in somewhere in this chain as they will get significant mind share and attention with ads, promotions,etc.
Look at the sold out situation that is in Vegas already. They want to introduce it as exclusive and cutting-edge. One reason why: Tesla is not here in racing (yet). Yes, I know that sounds preposterous. It depends on Tesla Roadster's existence and launch (into the market and not needed in space). So they might want to get ahead of that now for a relatively small $ for them.
jdeas .

 

(humor break here) Ah! that brings up the horrible manure crisis in London in 1894.

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/

 

So today’s Ford F1 plans of working with Red Bull are fitting the idea of the generic car manufacturer wanting the “Formula 1 level of car” brand that is also “green.” So I think this will play out with other teams. I would bet it will not with Ferrari.

Will this be a replay of LeMans in the 60s for Ferrari? No repeat of history. But perhaps a rhyme.

But it perhaps the pressure is coming now as generic makers want to marry their “green” with the capability of “F1” through deals like this. With big ad $ and €. Interestingly, this could out position Tesla in performance marketing….if they ever come up with a real Roadster 2.0 Which would be quite ironic.

With deals like this and others in motion, perhaps the mass market manufacturers will now be pushing the high end whole sport into electric faster than wanted.

So maybe there will be no softening of true NA or even assisted NA (turbo) or even hybrid. Maybe the high prices we see in the aftermarket of the Speciale coupe will not be too high when we look back. The same for TdF, 812Comp, and even a significant adjustment to 430Scuderia / 16M. Comments appreciated here as this stream of thought as opposed to comprehensive months of observation. Plus it’s great to get your respected input.