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Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by 1881, May 19, 2019.
Reckon the Spider will be £600 plus, just a hunch based on price trends
I agree with public opinion, we are a foul wasteful species. However not suggesting owning a lovely car adds much to the problem.
If you think public opinion doesn’t influence people look at how self conscious women in the developed world feel about wearing mink, once the ultimate symbol.
Thanks. Just new life phases I guess, and have a Pista Spider incoming so will still be around, just sense where it is trending for me at least.
Your Lusso is lovely and I certainly miss mine, was wonderful, enjoy it.
Enjoy, its a fabulous car and you can’t take it with you
Probably need to move to Politics and Religion to learn how where your line is on what you would give up. I won't clutter this thread with global foot print per person opinions.
Point well made. And the PC generation continues to flourish, as do Socialistic tendencies of the Millenial population segment -- i.e. our "future."
A pro-market & pro-mining right-leaning candidate was just elected Australian prime minister over the let’s-raise-taxes-to-fight-climate-change-and-redistribute-money leftist candidate. So, maybe the Socialist millenials and media don’t just yet get to decide how we live and what we drive.
I’m so often grateful that I live amongst the gorgeous & expensive horse farms of Kentucky, where my Ferraris are worth less than many thoroughbreds and routinely draw positive comments. Have never felt an ounce of hate here.
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Wish that was the situation here in SoCal in a Ferrari.
I am not too bothered what people “think” we all make our contributions to a better society in our own private way and should be allowed personal freedom within the law, without stigmatism.
My point is only that there will be a dwindling number of people wanting to “wrap themselves” in a Ferrari suit, with all the attendant messaging.
Plus I work in a law firm full of hungry young kids, few if any care about cars. They prefer experiences to things.
Only relevance of this to thread is why 812, a stunning car, is not drowning in demand like say 599 was. Over list in UK for two years.
Side issue but nobody can say the system ain’t broke, you would never design it this way.
(how many left - ok not perfect but) 2006:29 cars , 2007:143 , 2008:252. F12 2013:97 cars, 2014:214 , 2015:287 812 2018:101 cars
I had a 599 and do not recall apart from first year early premiums certainly no drowning demand, as recession/financial crisis hit hard soon after, F12 had none, they were begging to get you to buy one and 812 has had a number go for over £50k over list last year. There is only so much demand for a standard production car, and then just the very first few . Hell even a Lusso I know of went for £20k over list.
I also have worked with many young (well over 24 ) kids and there is plenty of interest in cars but no more or less than over the years. They do all want technology though, and any car that does not link instantly to their mobile device is toast. It is still a niche passion for many . I know more billionaire/millionaires who don't care about cars than those that do. As for driving a Ferrari, I have had far less negativity in recent years compared ten years ago, when it was generally hostile. People smile , maybe as it is something out of the normalised day to day. Classics even more positive. Maybe the Ferrari brand is not as appealing as Mclaren for a youthful generation, maybe, Lamborghini attract a youthful following too.
In a few years Ferrari will be a hybrid and electric car maker , they cannot do otherwise so maybe easier to be a closet Ferrari fan
I agree that many young folks currently seem to prefer experiences to things. Then again, the experience-centric baby boomer hippies of the Sixties became some of the most voraciously materialistic consumers of the Eighties, Nineties, & beyond that the modern world has ever seen.
As you suggested, there may be a myriad of other reasons why demand for Ferraris may be plateauing or softening, including competition/choice, company policies regarding serial purchases & participation in tons of social activities, time spent waiting for delivery, greatly increased cost (base and options), the pace at which new models are introduced (and the number of them), more trouble actually using the incredible performance in the real world, more electronic nannies on newer models (I hate having to turn off HELE start/stop every time I get in the 812), ...
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The 812 values I feel have little to do with the car itself. Ferrari in general is losing some of their previously strong resale prowess. Ferrari has been increasing production numbers heavily year-by-year, and is facing greater competition than ever before. More people are looking to Lamborghini, McLaren, or Porsche to satisfy their high performance super car needs.
I'm a huge Ferrari fan, still my favorite manufacturer. But when I look at how Lamborghini and McLaren have innovated in the past 5+ years, and then look at how Ferrari have innovated, I do feel Ferrari did so at a slower pace.
A good friend took me out in his 2018 McLaren 720S tonight. I was very impressed with the performance. Beautiful exterior and interior, too. The competition has upped its game, for sure.
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My dealer was getting well over MSRP 2 years into the F12. The F12 was being ordered after the 812 was known out of fear the new body design would be inferior compared to the PF. A fear that was certainly realized. Markets differ.
I had a different experience with the F12, I was offered £20,000 off a new order in 2016
Last year I heard a guy called Patrick Dixon speak. He has written numerous books on change in technology and society, his topical book on that day was called The Future of (Almost) Everything. His point was unexpected. Change is all around us, but it is not unpredictable (he gave some very compelling examples - for instance demographics, which drive all manner of change, are entirely predictable, with great accuracy) and it is both fast paced but not as far reaching as we tend to believe.
He gave a fictitious illustration about a guy who woke up from a 30 year coma, that went something like this:- He went to his cupboard, put on a shirt, trousers (pants to some!), belt, socks and shoes. He put some bread in the toaster and spread the toast with butter using a knife. He made some coffee which he thought tasted nice. He turned the front door latch and walked out of his house, got into his VW Golf, couldn’t find where to put the key but pressed the button that said ‘start’ and drove to his office, obeying all the street signs and traffic lights. Arriving at his office he sat down at a desk, recognising it as a desk instantly, sitting on an equally recognisable chair and picking up a very familiar pen. He noticed a computer on his desk, a little smaller than he remembered but he knew exactly what it was. He remembered Excel and Word and could easily remember how they worked... His point was clear, and from a guy who studies change his point was to say that we all get fooled into thinking more change is happening than the facts suggest, even though change is happening quickly. Sort of “everything changes but nothing much changes”. In fact he said that most true and significant change is slow and therefore predictable.
Ferrari volume growth has most always been with us. Demand for Ferrari products is stronger than it has ever been and Ferrari hold exactly the same position in the market that they always did. There have been many new entrants that Ferrari have seen come and go over the years, so the fact there is only really one new one around at the moment is something of a rarity in Ferrari’s history. 12 cylinder cars depreciate to begin with, four seater cars depreciate quite a lot. Older, rarer cars spike in value and special editions sell out. Ferrari production increases are a fairly straight graph, PuroSangue is the first car that may change that but Cayenne did nothing to hurt Porsche performance products’ values, so why should Ferrari be afraid? I think there is a lot of overthinking going on. RACE was just an inevitable thing that happened - it wasn’t even a new feeling for Ferrari, they had been owned by FIAT for years, basically a state-owned corporation. Give me the stock market any day.
I know many new and old money people. The proportion for Ferrari ownership is probably higher with new money than with old but in neither group is it anything like a majority. Again, no real change. There are more wealthy people in the world and for Ferrari to retain the same degree of ‘unobtainability’ prices need to increase. And guess what? They are increasing! What about all this amounts to drastic or even unpredictable change?
Great quality contribution, so you think in 30 years from now if you wake up in a coma there will any URBAN self drive, no chance.
Obviously we can’t prove either way but I would bet this; auto-drive will be a lot longer in arrival than people expect. Only Autodrive in cities in 30 years? Wouldn’t bet my house on it.
+1, coming from a Tesla owner.
And I disable those features as it's in very (unsafe) infant stages.
I think the attraction to politicians of :
Curtailing freedom (they hate freedom)
Environmental issues (real or fake)
Ability to control
Ability to tax per mile etc
GPS tracking (crime prevention, speeding etc all simplified)
In pockets of big tech lobby wise
Mean it’s inevitable and I think will be quicker than expected.I have to say clearing the streets of owned cars redundant for 99% of the time will be fabulous. London streets can be used so creatively again. All the tarmaced drives recovered.
‘Public opinion is moving fast against these cars and they will be a social embarrassment soon......“. PERHAPS IN THE U.K....NOT in the United States.
I don't know how you know this Jeffrey? Probably from reading too much fake news, as someone says.
Every ware I go in the UK the car draws a crowd of admirers. The Super car events draws crowds in there 1000's.
OK, so he was RE-elected and won the "un-winable" election. The left fought a "pure class warfare" and "tax the rich" campaign and were so confident that the betting odds on them winning was 1 to 1.16. The left (Labour) got destroyed with the Liberals getting a clear mandate to govern again. Every "pole" btw said the left would win by a landslide - so much for poles
Funny that - When you tax the cr*p out of everyone and spruik climate change to such a degree, people and I mean all people know it will affect their back pocket - badly. So even inner-city millennials vote with there back pocket. I mean who is going to pay for their multi-million dollar lifestyles while their air-conditioning and heating pumps out more CO2 than most urban homes who use solar for most of there energy requirements
What this got to do with Ferrari? IMO millennials (which I deal with everyday male and female) love the cars and don't seem to be "app-everything" junkies. I think they are more aware than most of the issues of the day and frankly should be given credit for their thinking about topics that will affect their future but they are by no means anti-car anti-rich etc etc - again IMO
or it could be sooner than a lot of people expect
Much progress is being made within fixed environments. Agriculture, Long Haul Trucking, Materials Handling robots, Drones, Mining and Construction are the first areas that will see true autonomous operation. Lessons learned in these environs, and the increasing use of simulation, will hasten development times for Autonomous Cars. They will be deployed first in jurisdictions with lax regulatory requirements. (China for example wants to be leadership in all things AI, so my view is relaxed and evolving standards, broadened testing, national pride and having some citizens, ahem, take-one-for-the-team is probably inevitable. The billions they are pumping into AI through venture capital is hugely meaningful as well.)
The first publicly licensed fully autonomous car will be a huge win for the organization and nation that does so, akin to the 1960s space race and landing a man on the moon.