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812 Market Dynamics

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by 1881, May 19, 2019.

  1. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    I wouldn't bet on that. Have any "serial" Ferrari buyers here been asked over the last 1-3 years to give their personal input? Could also be unfortunate timing and external factors but I would not put that much faith in any management of any company IMO
     
  2. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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  3. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    As deeply thought out as the recent strategy its replacing? :)
     
  4. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Ouch to that picture- I hope the people are OK. The car, very sad, but replaceable.
     
  5. Adamas

    Adamas F1 Rookie
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    Great post Anir.

    Mike
     
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  6. nads

    nads Formula Junior
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    When planning and strategising for the future everyone thinks the are right...........until they are not, ask the Kodak board how it played out for them. ;):D
     
  7. nads

    nads Formula Junior
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    The current dynamic is very very simple to understand..........too many variants of too many cars in too short a space of time at too high a price. There is only one direction, sadly........
     
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  8. sampelligrino

    sampelligrino Formula Junior

    Apr 16, 2017
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    I’d add it seems like there are more competitive offerings than ever before from other car companies (Porsche/Mac/Lambo etc), but also regs are slowly making it harder and harder for them to differentiate themselves in key areas (all going turbo/particle filters/hybrid). Add in increases in price and more frequent model releases from Ferrari as mentioned, with regs trying to neuter all cars across the board, will be interesting to see what happens. If the 812 is still having the typical V12 depreciation while being an amazingly unique offering today (mid front engine NA screaming beast), it won’t be better for anything else IMO, only worse unless very desirable and very limited

    Ive only bought one new Ferrari after being an admirer from afar, and instead of focusing on the big hit I took I look at it as I paid handsomely for the experience and feel fortunate to be able to do so. Glad I did it once, don’t think I’ll do it again unless something surprising comes out that’s attainable and bucks the trend of cars to come. Went for an older model/used next, and may become a trend for me



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    I don’t wonder that people are missing the point about strategy. Ferrari, as all manufacturers, have to adapt to a new reality - low CO2. They either do this or lose their right to exist. We don’t get to determine if this is all sensible or even logical, neither do Ferrari. RACE is undoubtedly a response to this challenge and it’s to Ferraris credit that they have been able to get their listing successfully. For an example of what can go wrong check out Aston.

    So that leaves Ferrari with the requirement and the finances to add hybrid models to the existing range. They seem to know that if they just switched everything over to hybrid customers would not follow in enough quantity. So they add new variants of hybrid and non-hybrid. This probably takes customer experience to a more normal level of depreciation. Take a guess at whether Ferrari consider that a price worth paying for survival...

    The silver lining is that the speculators have disappeared for now and we can get back to “if you like it, buy it“. And don’t expect it to come for free. I recall reading plenty of posts here crying out for precisely that. Perhaps Ferrari listen to fchat more than we think.
     
  10. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    All sounds logical but the Ferrari strategy is simply making money any way they can. That was their old strategy as well but they used to care about the brand heritage and being very exclusive. Public company does not car what they sell or who they sell to.

    I assume speculators are dropping due to the excessive pricing and the fact anyone can buy one but there are a lot of 812, Lusso and 488 out there that had to be bought to speculate on a limited car. For the future, hybrids give way to all electric and Ferrari will not be the OEM on those motors. Differentiation will be that much harder. I don't see a way to reverse things especially if you are going to need the cash to support racing at the highest levels. Secretly hoping it all blows up and they go private and exclusive again somehow.
     
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  11. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    There are several of us who feel same.
     
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  12. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    This is very true.
     
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  13. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    If you look at the current cars with the highest depreciation (Lusso & 812) you can argue that they are overpriced from the start and the market rapidly adjusts them back to something more in line with what they offer. If the 812's were going out the door for $350K, I doubt you would see them lose $100K so quickly. Same for the Lusso. These cars are beautiful, unique and special. Essentially no competition with what they offer but the starting price is just too high and the market adjusts accordingly. My local dealer is getting new 812's in almost weekly and I am interested but I would be a fool to buy one new at this point. No only would I lose $100K overnight but there are no other VS cars that this would get me into. The 812VS will be so limited and I wont make that cut even with a new purchase. This is a common sentiment that will drive pricing down hard before it levels out in a couple years for these models.
     
  14. dustman

    dustman F1 Rookie

    Jun 12, 2007
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    >except for the “beautiful “ part.
     
  15. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    I can understand the sentiment, but this doesn't make sense. If that were to happen, no one would want them. And if they were to private in good times, then someone would be even more profit motivated than now... I don't think we should kid ourselves that they didn't have profit pressures before. Lets come back to this in a few years and see how things look. In the mean time- are they making desirable cars or not? For me the answer is absolutely yes!
     
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  16. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    All companies have profit pressure except the federal government. Seeking profit is essential to making a good product. In my fantasy, Ferrari goes broke, gets picked up and passed along until someone with the passion that was Ferrari rescues them and creates a boutique product. Of course not reality. To answer your question about being desirable, I would sadly say I don't think so - not for me anymore. Its mostly because of the designs, silent motors and the price. Something about $400k+ for a production turbo v8 or $500k for a production V12 with negative styling. The only other V12 is a production based F12/812 with no windshield and not street legal for between $1.5M-$1.7M. The future is also being promised as all hybrid and then all electric. As you say we should come back to this in a few years and see how things look.
     
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  17. italiafan

    italiafan F1 Veteran
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    I also think there has been an educational shift (can’t think of a better term at the moment). The “magic” of Ferrari (and all storied marques) has been eroded by instant access to “all things Ferrari” on the internet. Years ago there were car magazine stories, occasionally glimpsing one at a car show or even more rare see one blasting down the street in the wild...truly awe-inspiring events for car lovers.
    Now you can watch endless YouTube videos on all aspects of Ferrari, from inside the factory to details about every model. Drag races between brands by idiots and arguing over .01 sec difference in 0-62 mph times. Endless Youtuber videos of punks with way too much money doing bizarre things with the cars, and wheels, and body kits, and wraps, and social-influencers trying to show off. We talk online endlessly about “brand management,” and depreciation residuals, service problems, and changing emissions/sound regulations as well as the negative sentiment regarding a wasteful hobby.
    We are “paying attention to the man behind the curtain.”
    With the erosion of wanderlust into the world of Ferrari we are left with, what “product” are we paying for?
    When that magic begins to fade, everything else will follow since this is primarily a brand shored up by irrational “magic” dreamers.
     
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  18. Hex

    Hex Karting

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    #643 Hex, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
    I certainly agree with much of this, but in spite of this, I believe that the Ferrari mystique, which was built up over decades, and the incredible cars they build, will continue to occupy a special place in the car world. And, even though Ferrari has been through many iterations, from the beginning there has always been, is now, and will always be only one Ferrari.
     
  19. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    That assumes that all the undoubted pedigree counts for something as the business model evolves. Think Kodak, Olympus, Blackberry etc. All of F history is tied up in elite aspirated engines - no guarantee that the same sense of aspiration and history will support other methods of propulsion. And if the product distinction comes from eg comfort, navigation, multi media and driving aids those are actually the things that Ferrari are RUBBISH at. My Cayenne Coupe MMI feels 15 years ahead of my 812 and Pista.
     
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  20. Napoli

    Napoli Formula Junior

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    So, ADAS, Front Cam, Back Radar, etc. suck?
     
  21. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    That's a big IF, and, for me, it was one of the most attractive things about the 458S, best in class engine, key in the ignition, just a car, no nonsense (nav, comfort seats, multimedia, intrusive driving aids), F1 transmission, and rev counter lights on the wheel, pure bliss. 812SF, with race seats, steering wheel lights, fantastic V12, perfect. And, no radio, forget the radio, forget GPS/Nav, unwelcome, just a car is where it's at.

    If you are seeking a supercar for how much comfort and nannies it can bring, well, we have really different ideas what a supercar needs to bring to have a party.

    The 458S and 812 are super comfortable compared to older school cars.

    Comparing any Ferrari to a truck (Cayenne) just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

    If MMI/etc are where you are, a supercar is in whole 'nother direction.

    The new Ferrari interior with all screens, no dials, heads up, no thanks.

    But, if I have correctly understood, the 812 replacement will be more geared to your liking, so, stand by for that, I'll stay back in time :)
     
  22. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

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    I personally think ADAS & back radar suck big time. I find cameras useful but I’d happily give them up.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  23. Napoli

    Napoli Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2017
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    Howbout Surround View and Blindspot Detection, which is in the Back Radar package? Are these on your car? If so, do you find them useful on your 812?
     
  24. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

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    I don’t have these gizmos on my 812 or any other car I’ve ever owned. Thankfully, I’ve never had any sort of wreck on the street in 37 years of driving.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  25. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    My DD has everything you can think of except start-stop. I thought all of it was helpful when new. Now the only two I leave on are auto high beams and head-up display. The display I leave enabled because its too boring of a car to enjoy driving so having the numbers and gadgets projected gives me something to look at. All the other auto stuff I don't remember how to enable anymore. The auto braking is downright dangerous and cannot be disabled.

    On a true exotic sports car you need none of it. I don't use the sensors or cameras or navigation or pit speed. Poking the right petal and staring ahead for danger is honestly all there is time for 98% of the time. The sound and the fury keep me focused and coming back. Head up display would distract me, navigation not needed since I like getting lost in that car but auto high beams are as necessary as intermittent wipers (except I don't drive in the rain).
     
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