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812 Market Dynamics

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by 1881, May 19, 2019.

  1. Ferro458

    Ferro458 Karting

    May 26, 2014
    158
    These are really impressive cars, no doubt. I have an F12 and drove one recently. Although I am a Ferrarisiti all the way, I have to say the achievement of the 720 is undeniable.
     
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  2. JasonN

    JasonN Karting

    Sep 24, 2017
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    Jason
    Thank goodness not where I live in the midwest (Western PA) but it can happen quick. When the H2 Hummer came out in 2003, they were all the rage. Two years later, they were a target by the friendly opposition. I constantly got flipped off, had people smack my windows, scream at me calling me an environmental terrorist (one guy on a bike said I was responsible for the BP oil spill) and had multiple notes left under my wiper. It was a disgusting display of hatred and intimidation.
     
  3. JMJ

    JMJ Karting
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    Jan 27, 2015
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    Jeffrey J

    Had the same when I got the fist G500 in Manhattan in 2003...occupy Wall Street types, on bicycles, felt threatened by the charcoal paint and the tinted windows..but I suspect that deep down, they really wanted one, and were just acting out...
     
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  4. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    812 ?

    I had to keep looking at the thread title every so often; to remind where I was actually reading... :(
     
  5. Rory J

    Rory J Formula Junior
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    I think another problem is that as these cars get larger and faster, they become less enjoyable to use on today's roads. Today's supercars have the performance of purebred race cars from a decade ago and driving any car below far from its limits is simply boring. That you can't really get an 812 to anywhere near its limits on a public road essentially turns it into a track toy. And if you want a car for the track, why not buy an actual race car?
     
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  6. tonyswfla

    tonyswfla Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2007
    655
    Florida
    like your scorpion, i have a 77 also
     
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  7. GameMaker

    GameMaker Formula Junior
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    Apr 17, 2014
    271
    WA State
    It's kinda a true but kinda not. I find plenty of room to put my 812 accelerator to the floor and have fun doing it. The car is just generally a hoot to drive around. Sure you have "extra" performance because you aren't going to go 200mph on the street, but so what? It's still glorious to drive around in the V12 and just enjoy it when you can. If you want to get technical about it a Honda Civic has more power than it "needs" to be a commuter car.
     
  8. Rory J

    Rory J Formula Junior
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    Plenty of folks are still buying 812s and feel the same as you. Weekends spent with F12 and 812 demonstrators years apart both left me feeling frustrated more than anything, most of the time. I did enjoy both on the track, but prefer 911 GT series there.
     
  9. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

    May 18, 2011
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    Anir
    Funny...the F12 and 812 both leave me frustrated on the track, likely due to inadequate street tires, stock brake fluid that boils too quickly, and the relatively soft suspension setups. However, I enjoy both cars immensely on the street - especially Smoky Mountain passes & sweepers on the way to VIR, Road Atlanta, & Barber.

    The 812 is the best GT street car I’ve ever owned. And I just replaced the brake fluid with Castrol SRF which I use in my Radical SR3 RSX.


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  10. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Jan 10, 2011
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    Thanks for the useful input. Did you also change tires? And to which type/compound? Also did you change brake fluid yourself or just do it during a service ?

    Thanks
     
  11. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

    May 18, 2011
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    I tracked the 812 on a whim after my Radical engine blew up at Road Atlanta. So, I hadn’t prepped the car specifically for the track. I probably won’t track it too much more in the future, but had my mechanics replace the stock brake fluid with Castrol SRF to see if I would notice a difference from stock on street and maybe track. I have the brake fluid bled by the dealer at least once / year, and the Castrol SRF has a very high wet boiling point. So, it seems like a reasonable, albeit pricier, option for street use.

    I ran the stock Pirellis with about 2,500 miles on them. I’m used to slicks, and the Pirelli street tires were far from ideal under track conditions.

    I think the Pista would make a superior track car to the 812, but I honestly prefer dedicated lightweight track / race cars to any heavy production car on track.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  12. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Thank you for the info! Super useful. And complete agree on weight for track issue.

    Your 812 looks great! Is that color Blu Pozzi or something more Le Mans ? And you look happy. Nice to see.

    Here is my 812 inside my PPF installers garage.
     
  13. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

    May 18, 2011
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    Beautiful spec on your 812. Our color is Blu Simond - originally created by FChatter Traveller for use on his tdf. He graciously allowed the Tailor Made team to share it with us. I have a dedicated thread on the car on FChat with lots of pics.

    The track is definitely my happy place.


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  14. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    That was very much my experience, so large, nightmare down country lanes, any dampness on the road made it laughable and just lots of responsibility and little fun. Add to that the fact that A Roads (UK roads just below Freeway) are its natural home and these are covered in speed cameras now.

    Very frustrating.
     
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  15. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    For me 1300 kilos, 400 BHP, a few mod cons, ceramic brakes, a short shift manual box with the roof down is a perfect equilibrium.
     
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  16. 1881

    1881 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2016
    20
    Back to Market Dynamics

    Observations/ Summary

    Thanks for everybody's contribution, to summarise, here a few take aways what people thought impacts the pre-owned market

    What is driving market dynamics

    • F12 is very attractively priced vs 812 at basically almost 50% of the price
      • Seems intuitive, it is hard to justify spending almost twice the money when you can get 80% of the car with the F12
    • Ferrari's new model strategy is impacting overall the depreciation curves
      • Seems equally intuitive, why pay up for a pre-owned car if the newest Ferrari is around the corner
      • 812 spider coming
      • The other factor is that Ferrari seems to letting go of the exclusivity factor ie SF90 can be bought without Ferrari history
    • Mixed reviews of the 812
      • I've seen many reviews and they were all overwhelmingly positive, not sure where people are getting mixed reviews from
    • Other manufacturers up'ing their game
      • People mainly referring to the 720s, however I wonder whether this really impacts the 812 market, it is a different car and different price segment, the only comparable is to my mind the DBS
    • Generational shift/ decreasing social acceptance
      • Very hard to assess, however I doubt this has radically changed over the last two years to the extend it would impact the market
    Market Dynamics Observations

    • US market appears stronger, with cars offered at +5% MSRP, however cars also not moving hands
    • One person stated to have recently sold at c. MSRP -5%

    Discussion

    The trend seems to continue, since starting this post a net 3-4 cars have been added on the UK market with basically none being sold

    it would be interesting to hear from people that

    i) Recently sold an 812
    ii) Are currently in the process of buying a pre-owned 812
    iii) Market dynamics in continental Europe
     
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  17. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
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    Incredible to see a magnificent car like this actually being used on the racetrack. Kudos!

    Jim
     
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  18. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Feb 4, 2014
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    Completely dumbfounded by this. Aside from the harsh looks of the car, why would anyone love the F12 but not socially accept the 812? Maybe an EU thing. Either you love an exotic Ferrari or you don't. And those that have paid up to own one could care less what others think as acceptable.
     
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  19. ajr550

    ajr550 Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2014
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    UK and Caribbean
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    Andrew Roberts
    Personal experience.
    I have an 812 in Knightsbridge,Central London.
    I park car on on street AMAZED at the positive reaction in an area jaded with supercars.
    I have met more of my neighbours whilst cleaning car in the last 3 months than in 12 years living in our property !
     
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  20. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    If and only if residuals matter to you, and you are in the UK you need to sell ASAP. Friend of mine could not attract any bid AT ALL for his 812, dealers saying they had 3/4 etc on books even if not “out front” and would only consider an agency deal.

    Trade outright purchase for say a 350k car has gone from 335 to 290 in 2 months. If you can get a bid.

    Hope helpful intelligence and of course enjoy the cars, just useful to know I guess.
     
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  21. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2016
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    Barry K
    #71 BarryK, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019

    Interesting comments, particularly for a country where the dealers say that the car is sold out I wonder how much of this is due to the 812 spider.

    Big picture, with Ferrari bringing so many new models now, the market is soon going to need indigestion pills as depreciation hits in a way Ferrari buyers haven't felt before.
     
  22. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    Most dealers are saying keep an 812 on the drive not back catalogue to get an early Spider. So guess that implies not.

    I think as widely noted here the 1.market environment and 2. Ferrari business model has changed and some are not prepared to accept the revised carrying/holding costs.
     
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  23. 1881

    1881 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2016
    20
    Wow! I was expecting the cars to come under pressure, but not that massively in such a short period of time, but then i really haven't seen ANY car move in the UK market...has anybody seen the other side of the equation? ie been in the market for an 812 and submitted offers for a 350k car?
     
  24. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    May 2, 2005
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    How much of that is government extortion (Tax, Vat etc). One needs to factor that out of the equation IMO as its not a Ferrari cost. Thats the way most justify the depreciation :)
     
  25. 1881

    1881 Rookie

    Dec 21, 2016
    20
    although there seem to be some newly listed 2019 cars that are offered at premium, how does that work?
     

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