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812 Market Dynamics

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by 1881, May 19, 2019.

  1. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula Junior
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    Thanks for the kind words. An SF90 in Grigio Silverstone over Cioccolato would be sensational, and rare. Your 812 is extraordinary, and I dare say the finest representation of the car I have even seen. Every last TM detail is perfect. Bravo! And I too think the F12 is an unfathomable bargain. I simply can’t imagine more car for the money at that $225ish price point.
     
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  2. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

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    Thank you!

    I love Cioccolato on our FF, and the Terra Bruciata with Grigio Silverstone on our former 612 OTO. Another car I regret selling. Lesson learned.

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  3. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    Still some sub-2k mile well-equipped creampuff F12's out there for sale at $120K+ discount. Pininfarina beauty with tire-shredding power. Definitely a buyer's market.
     
  4. open roads

    open roads F1 Rookie

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    #179 open roads, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
    I also think the F12 is an unfathomable bargain right now.

    But did you mean to say $220K? And not $120K + discount?

    If they're $120K + discount. I'll take two please.:p
     
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  5. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    Having had plenty "seat time" across two different continents (LHD and RHD) in the F12 and 812, I can honestly say IMO its night and day between the cars. One can definitely see/feel the age difference. In addition I found the F12's stying a bit weak and much prefer the more aggressive nature of the 812. As for value's going forward, it doesn't matter as every time one starts the 812 you can't put a value on the fell you get :)
     
  6. GameMaker

    GameMaker Formula Junior
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    I love my 812 even more after taking it to the track.
     
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  7. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    So many great posts! Thank you for the very thoughtful discussion. I submit to you all there's a reason why Ferrari's production car flagship will become mid engined again. But I love the front V12s and wherever I am, if there is a front engined V12, I can guarantee a crowd of one. And I think the 812 is AMAZING.
     
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  8. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Yes thank you to everyone who posted. It added to my view and learning. I still don’t know where the 812 economic value is going, I could make arguments either way. I found myself saying “ok, I didn’t think and really don’t want to agree with this perspective and post since I have an 812, but very good points.” And the same with people who suggest the positives on where the value could go. “Yep this is exactly what I thought.”

    The only thing I do know is that I have fun driving it. And the other thing I do know is that it is great being on this board with everyone of you who posted. Thanks!
     
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  9. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    #184 Caeruleus11, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
    I forgot to write something more:

    This will probably be obvious to many here, but its worth mentioning, the only good car investing advice I have ever found is simply "buy what you love" - its nearly impossible to predict what a new car will do. The older a car is, the better we understand values. And even then, values can fluctuate.

    My take on the state of the sports car market is

    * we've never had it so good! So many great choices from fantastic brands, with Ferrari being the strongest. And the engineering across these brands is tremendous. In the case of the 812, they have achieved almost mid/rear engine dynamics in a front/mid engine car. I have driven a lot of cars in my time, as I am sure many of you have, and I don't remember a time since probably the 458 Italia, where I have test driven a car where I was truly "blown away" with how good it was. I had an F12b and I was expecting an improvement, but I expected it to be incremental. Yes, it really feels like a whole new model, not a car built on the same basic platform. But, it seems to me, they have likely taken this as far as they can in terms in terms of dynamics on a front/mid V12. The car is not a lightweight. It is a sheer delight on the street. And I am sure it is a total hoot to goof around with on a track, but,

    * the ever increasing demands of regulations and technology are conspiring to put a damper on our hobby. And those are driving weight up. We know of the discussion of GPF and other items. Also simple consumer demands, larger screens and more tech, these all increase weight. These regulations are going to make it very very tough for Ferrari to offer us our favorite thing: fairly large, NA high revving, V12 making a beautiful mechanical sound. I hate to say this but I am convinced this will not be with us for much longer. Its impossible to say, but 10 years ago I wouldn't have ever thought I'd be saying this, and 10 years from now I would be very surprised if they are offering a 6.5l NA V12 at all, on any model. So cars are not going to get lighter in the future- they are going to get heavier- sorry, this is true. Maybe some clever engineering can limit this, but the trend will be more (not less) weight.

    * Consumer preference seems to be that sports cars should be mid engine look. I say this based on the fact that a new entrant into the market place in the name of McLaren chose this layout and has not made a front engine car. Also the other newer niche players all go mid engine. Porsche has a unique rear engine layout and they also offer mid engine. Aston will soon offer mid engine cars. And even Corvette will offer a mid engine car. Now Ferrari has announced the front V12 NA model, the car they built their heritage upon, will no longer be their production flagship. Instead this honor will go to the mighty 1,000hp SF90 Stradale- a mid engine hybrid AWD monster. I bring this up because all these companies have their own data, but they are all doing the same thing. Why? I can only conclude people's tastes are such that they look at the shape of a front engine layout car and think its not for them. Front engine cars of the modern era all have a very similar silhouette- this is because of packing requirements and various regulations. I think the mid engine layout provides greater design freedom. And I think people want to know what they are driving is very special- and they probably want others to know it too. My observation is tastes around the world are becoming more homogenized. Its kind of strange because on one hand personalization is doing extremely well, but its personalization of the same or similar object.

    * I am not bringing this up to discuss the broad issue of Climate Change, but rather to state a fact that EV and hybrid are seen as a positive among the younger generation, and this is something any astute marketer has to factor into their analysis.

    So add this up and this is my thinking about why we have the SF90 Stradale as the new flagship of a new era. And I'm sure I've missed other points. It is a spectacular machine, I don't bring it up here to discuss it, but rather as an example of where things are going. It also means the mission for whatever replaces the 812 won't be to be the leading edge of the spear in terms of sports car performance. Ferrari always will surprise us, but my guess is they will still make an 812 successor, but this likely frees such a car's mission from bringing mid engine performance to a front engine package. Now they can play more to the elegance and romance of motoring and make something more for the traditionalists. Perhaps the likely release of the expected 812 Spider soon will give us an idea of the future?

    I did not like the 812's styling at all when I saw the first pics. Then seeing it in person did not really do it for me. But over time I've looked at the styling more and I can see what they are getting at. And I think they did a great job. I still don't think its as outright pretty nor harmonious as the F12b, but I think they had to make the whole car more aggressive and fascinating in order to convey the extra power and also to compete with a market place that seems to like ever more outrageous shapes (Aventador and even the McLaren cars- did you notice these are mid engine). But after I drove the 812, I just couldn't look at it in the same way, I just loved the drive so much and the car's shape began to make more sense to me. Yes, I see the Daytona.

    Bottom line: 812 is beyond fantastic and if you love it and can swing it, get it. Economic value my guess is it will be somewhere in line with where its predecessors have gone. Do not expect these cars to appreciate or hold value. If they do, then that's great. But don't expect it! No car is a great financial investment, it is an investment in your happiness.

    (PS- those of you who argued the 812 will appreciate or depreciate, you all made great points I agree with. I just think we simply cannot know.)
     
  10. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

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    Beautifully stated, J.

    My children and wife have also historically stylistically equated high-end sportscar design with mid- or rear-engine placement. I suspect this at least partially explains Ross’s comments about the lackluster Cars and Coffee 812 reception.

    I’ll also admit that ultimate handling limits are higher with placement of the engine behind the driver, despite Ferrari’s remarkable front/mid engine engineering and resultant rear weight basis. The higher weight of the 812 and FF are also immediately noticeable (especially on on track), compared to mid- or rear-engined cars I’ve driven.

    I attended the 812 preview in Maranello back in Jan 2017, so I saw the car in person before ever seeing a pic. It was love at first sight, as it was with the FF and F12 for me. I think I may be in the minority.




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  11. R J

    R J Formula Junior
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    I had to have an 812 the first moment I saw it - 16 February 2017. I still remember the moment the press release photos were emailed to me. I knew then it was meant to be.

    A feeling I last had when the F355 was launched - a time when I had no means and only hopes while working through university.

    Perhaps it was the F12 tdf that laid the foundations. What a car! What a sound! And what a drive that tdf was! Magnificent, thrilling, passionate. What ever it was, when the 812 was launched, I was fascinated. A modern Ferrari, a car very much of the moment (a moment soon to be lost to changing sentiments and regulations), but evocative of the V12 front engine GT cars of the early 1970s and before. I will never tire looking at it. At my own. At photos of my own. At photos of yours on this forum. Finding the ways in which it moves the Ferrari V12 forward but has family traits from the 250 GT Lusso through to the 365 GTB Daytona. It is a masterpiece - and the level of personality each owner injects into their own is wonderful. The variety of looks and specs is wonderful.

    Everything that evokes passion is subjective. To many - I have read on this forum - it will always be a dull replacement to the F12. For others it will grow or has grown over time, like @Caeruleus11. And for some - like me, @Bundy, @Thecadster, @ajr550 and others - it will be the pinnacle of modern V12 front engine sporting GTs. Difficult to predict the used market. But supply / demand always wins. If there are enough that love it / grow to love it and supply is tight due to there being few sellers, prices will hold. If many sell, and the reception in the pre-loved/used market is luke warm (many at this level buy just to have the latest thing and when it isn't, they drop it and move on), then supply will out strip demand and prices will drop. Tough to beat the market. Supply/demand always wins and the market finds a level.

    But, as @ajr550 said ...
    And as @Caeruleus11 observed:

     
  12. R J

    R J Formula Junior
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    2019 Q1 (the fifth quarter since deliveries started in the UK) numbers just released.

    812: There are now 162 licensed for use on the UK roads. Plus 7 cars subject to a SORN. So 62 appear to have been delivered to the UK in Q1 2019. Quite a big number relative to each of the previous four quarters.

    For reference, by end of the F12Berlinetta’s fifth quarter, 130 cars were licensed and 2 subject to a SORN.

    This suggests there was a bit of a focus on getting deliveries to the UK ramped up in the first part of 2019.

    There are currently 315 F12Bs licensed and 52 subject to a SORN. So 367 total in the UK at at end of Q1 2019.
     
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  13. 1881

    1881 Rookie

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    #188 1881, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
    interesting stats! There are c. 25 cars on the market (at least visible) so around 15%, which feels high

    also ask prices have come down over past 2-3 weeks, with some cars being reprices 10-20k and new cars coming in much lower into the market, and higher milage cars certainly taking a hit

    up to 500 miles: 345k
    around 1k miles: 335k
    2-4k miles: 320k

    however there seems to also have been around 5 cars sold

    Has anybody been a recent buyer or heard of a recent buy, would be interesting to understand where the transaction prices currently are

    @rj you are saying 5th quarter, but effectively it is only the 3rd quarter, were there any delivers in 1/2Q 2018? would you have the stats that come the F12 vs 812 q/q deliveries?

     
  14. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Speaking of 812s on the market, right now Ferrari’s preowned portion of their site shows 42 812s available for sale right now at dealerships in the US. 33 of them are 2018 models and 9 are 2019 models.
     
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  15. R J

    R J Formula Junior
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    Here are the qtr by qtr numbers for the 812. Deliveries started in Q1 2018 (possibly only dealer demo cars):
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    is this the only ferrari model with unsold inventory?
     
  17. 1881

    1881 Rookie

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  18. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    It is only pre-owned. see: https://preowned.ferrari.com/en . I was specifically looking at north america / united states. you can pick any model. it looks at all the listed dealership inventory. quite helpful if you want to buy preowned from a dealer in the US. Lists 135 V-12 for sale (1 data error included an F-40).

    55 F12. 15 F12 TDF. Now 43 812 Superfast. Total cars for sale right now in US is 789. Including everything; Testarossa, 308, California, Enzo, SA Aperta, Challenge Stradale, etc. Okay, it is a great search engine to find a great preowned to buy. https://preowned.ferrari.com/en
     
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  19. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    thanks for that ! it is indeed a very helpful link
     
  20. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    What a wonderfully passionately written post! It's as if you said my thoughts about so many Ferraris. Thank you, I loved reading this! :)
     
  21. Maximus1977

    Maximus1977 Karting

    Feb 13, 2016
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    Long story short, we might disagree on the looks department, but in overall driveability, usefulness, sound, fun and 'emotion' the 812 clearly beats the F12.
    I couldn't agree more as your percentions are the same as mine.
    The 812 truly is a step up from the F12 which was more unrefined.

    How long can we still enjoy the sound of a NA V12 I do not know. What I do know is that future regulations and current aero 'requirements' also dictate the shape of curent and future cars. We can all weep at the looks of an F12, but look back at the 250GTO, ther eis a reason why cars don't have those clasical shapes anymore.... A shame yes, but technology moves on wether we like it or not.
     
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  22. Face76

    Face76 F1 Veteran
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    That's $100k you lost on that car is the least of your worries. Isn't your wife having twins? It's Town & Country mini van for you!
     
  23. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    :eek: with wood siding to?
     
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  24. klinkman

    klinkman Formula Junior
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    exactly
     
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