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812 SF / GTS with GPF fitted - exhaust improvements

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by KarlA69, May 20, 2020 at 4:55 PM.

  1. KarlA69

    KarlA69 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2017
    416
    UK
    Full Name:
    Karl
    I finally managed to get a hold of the parts diagram for the 812 SF with and without GPF fitted (attached). Top pic shows with GPF and the lower one is the pre-GPF car. Interesting to note that the GPF appears to be integrated with the catalytic converter rather than a stand alone part. As such, it should be fairly easy to remove it and replace the whole part with a sports cat (?). No doubt these will be available in due course from Capristo, Novitec etc. The main issue will be whether that then requires an ECU tune (the GPF requires re-generation cycles etc...I don't think you can just remove it...)

    Secondly, the mid-section and rear boxes of the two cars (pre and post GPF) appear to be the same, so the existing after market kit (x pipes and rear boxes) from the current batch of pre-GPF cars should fit...

    I'm not a technical person so feel free to point out mistakes in my assumptions!

    Karl
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. gliazzurri

    gliazzurri Karting

    Jun 11, 2016
    108
    Maryland
    Good info Karl. Thanks for posting. Does it look like the original sport cats would just fit in without any other attachments just the same? Excluding the ecu issue.
     
  3. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    912
    Austin TX
    Thank you for that, the term is 4-way catalyst (where the GPF is contained within the catalytic converter). This is the most sensible approach, placing the GPFs close as possible to the exhaust headers to capture the most heat into the GPF.

    However, replacing it (with a conventional 3-way catalyst or none at all) is not an option unless you are ready to void your warranty, if that is the case there will likely be aftermarket options.

    Warranty will be null and void because the ECUs must be reprogrammed and Ferrari will not support it and as a result, you are own your own for any engine/emissions related problems that may occur.

    And, in the EU there are rules/laws that, if enforced, would result in a penalty or failure for the car to be used on public roadways.

    And, for 2021 (or maybe 2022) model years there will be additional noise regulations (courtesy of the EU) that further diminish the exhaust note. Same provisions apply...
     
  4. KarlA69

    KarlA69 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2017
    416
    UK
    Full Name:
    Karl
    #4 KarlA69, May 21, 2020 at 12:58 AM
    Last edited: May 21, 2020 at 1:08 AM
    Thanks, this is useful. I fully expected that ECU mods would void the warranty. Two questions:

    - I wouldn't touch the ECU during the warranty period. However, I'd consider replacing the GPF when out of warranty, plus doing the necessary ECU tune. The latter would be limited to nullifying the GPF... I have no desire to add more power or torque. Assuming the car is out of warranty anyway, would you go down this path (assume you use reputable firm like Novitec) or do you think it's too risky and just leave the ECU alone?
    - I appreciate that removing the GPF isn't legal in the EU. Nor is speeding ;-) However, you take your car in for the annual test... is Joe the local mechanic really going to know that your car was once fitted with a GPF? It could easily have been a pre-GPF model to which you've fitted sports cats (perfectly legal, at least in the UK)

    The extra noise regs will be a killer for cars like this....BUY NOW while you still can :)

    Karl
     
  5. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,092
    You could not do that in Switzerland. It is not only illegal, but you may go to jail and the car might be confiscated.
    And even Joe, the local mechanic, has access to check chassis numbers and find out when they started with GPF.
    In Switzerland there are mobile controls by special units of the MOT/DMV, even sometimes at 3 am in the morning while you are cruising on the motorway.
    Just last week about 200 sports cars were controlled and a few dozens seized by Swiss police and DMV authorities. Mainly because of various modifications and noise.
    No fun here.

    Yes, the new laws will kill a lot of sales, no doubt.

    Marcel Massini
     
  6. ppg70

    ppg70 Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2017
    685
    Yesterday I talked with the manager of Ferrari service in my city. They normally install Tubi on a lot of 812SF pre-GPF, and of course not only 812.
    He confirmed that GPF can’t be removed.
    As stated from others removing GPF will null and void your warranty and is illegal in all EU with the risk the car can be confiscated. Today control about noise are getting more severe and frequent everywhere not only in Switzerland.

    But according to somebody 812SF GPF and 812GTS are still sound great.....let’s wait for more video and feedback or test drive. Now people they are getting their 812 with GPF installed and they can provide trustable feedbacks.

    For sure future is not bright with the new noise regulations in EU......politics!!!
     
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  7. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    2,513
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    Cavallo
    Has it been confirmed whether GPF is being fitted to new 812 SF builds bound for USA as well? Or is it EU cars only?
     
  8. gliazzurri

    gliazzurri Karting

    Jun 11, 2016
    108
    Maryland
    I don't think confirmed at all. Reports were that at some point they would be converted but no specified date after which it would be guaranteed for sure. As of a few months back it sounded like owners/dealers in the US were receiving non-GPF still bound for NA, while Euro/other world specs were forcibly changed already to GPF. Perhaps recent receivers of their vehicles can contribute here?? Or those in touch with their dealers who are receiving cars in the US??
     
  9. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2006
    552
    It s not a country, it s just a jail !
    Leaving is sometimes one of the best solutions...
     
  10. KarlA69

    KarlA69 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2017
    416
    UK
    Full Name:
    Karl
    Wow that's really harsh. I have heard similar things about penalties for speeding in Switzerland. Shame, because it's a beautiful country with a nice lifestyle (I often travel to Zurich for work)

    In the UK, you are unlikely to encounter any issues about the noise of the car unless it's really excessive and/or you act like an idiot (e.g. rev'ing the car near Harrods!). If you do, you're looking at a fine / penalty notice. No one is getting sent to jail because their car is too loud!!
     
  11. racerdj

    racerdj F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 19, 2003
    6,535
    Indianapolis
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    DJS
    My 812 is due at the dealership(USA) any day and does NOT have GPF per Ferrari Modis, Thankfully!
     
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  12. wrs

    wrs F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jul 11, 2015
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    It's my understanding that US cars shipped as 2020 models will not have GPF but 2021 and future will.
     
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  13. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Feb 4, 2014
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    Comor Bidity
    Best case are those owners with both and plans to keep them. No bias to convince themselves of the new purchase. The GPF is designed to filter small particles and burn them off so there is without a doubt a difference in sound. The question is will it be too much for any particular owner and that is a matter of opinion.
     
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  14. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2009
    703
    OC
    It just baffles me that you can be sent to jail for your car being too loud. How do people put up with this? These are basic human rights. What will the government take next?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  15. gliazzurri

    gliazzurri Karting

    Jun 11, 2016
    108
    Maryland
    Can anyone explain how the GPF is connected in any way other than structurally to the catalytic converter or engine monitoring systems? What is the difference between 1.) taking the GPF and cat out and replacing it with a sport cat and 2.) taking the cat out and replacing it with a sport cat (on the non-GPF models), from a standpoint of ECU or issues that would unfold? I realize some may be speculation, but I am curious how the differences would present given some discussion here so far. I understand that a no-cat situation can produce some CEL issues, but what is the frequency of a sport cat producing a CEL issue, and also then the possibility (even if speculated) of the GPF being removed along with the cat for a higher flow cat (sport cat) producing CEL issues?
     
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  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    912
    Austin TX
    Well, those questions have a simple answer, find a pre-GPF car and those questions are moot.

    To answer otherwise, once the car is out of factory powertrain warranty, and a proven/reliable "GPF DELETE" option exists, then I would do that, however, I would not be the first one to do that, I would wait for a solution to be in-use for at least one year to give its customers time to work through any problems.

    As for EU countries, checking the car's original equipment is possible and, I believe, only the transistion year would be "fuzzy" (for instance, 2020) as to whether a particular car was outfitted or not. After that initial year, for instance, 2021, all Ferraris will be known to have GPF regardless, so I do not think that line of reasoning will be valid in future years regardless.

    Overall, the intervening messages show a distinct growing awareness of what is happening -- and maybe it will make more sense in future years as to why Ferrari overproduced 812s for EU/UK...because they know what was going to happen well before it did.
     
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  17. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    912
    Austin TX

    Well, a CEL would be the least of your issues, the car would be in permanent limp mode if it would be allowed to start at all.

    And, you will void your factory powertrain warranty.

    And, the GPF is an active exhaust device, the ECU looks for the GPF, it signals it to regenerate, if it cannot find it or does not have correct responses the car will go into limp mode (this is significantly different than a passive catalytic converter).

    And, depending your country, you might not even be able to insure the car:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/modifying-your-vehicles-emissions/modifying-your-vehicles-emissions-the-legal-safety-and-health-implications

    Nice write up here:
    https://satuning.co.uk/ppf-removal-and-delete/

    An overall review:
    https://www.avl.com/documents/5490654/6605734/AVL+PTE+Techday+%234_02_GPF+Development+and+Calibration_GWolbank.pdf
     
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  18. LMH

    LMH Karting

    May 5, 2019
    103
    Spain
  19. gliazzurri

    gliazzurri Karting

    Jun 11, 2016
    108
    Maryland
    Thanks for giving some feedback about this. So there are definite electronic connections to this device then yes? Not just a flow through add on. I guess that is partly what I was asking. Whether or not additional wiring goes to the GPF or if it is another sieve that functions differently.
     
  20. Cnoordz

    Cnoordz Karting

    Jun 28, 2018
    50
    Full Name:
    C
    Quick snap of my 812 with GPF.
    Cold start with flaps open, starts around 22s

     
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  21. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    912
    Austin TX
    The start sounds same as non-GPF.

    Question, how do you know it has GPF devices?
     
  22. Cnoordz

    Cnoordz Karting

    Jun 28, 2018
    50
    Full Name:
    C
    Type code of my car is F152DB 2P V12 EURO6D GPF EU AD
     
  23. KenU

    KenU Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 14, 2004
    441
    Planet Earth
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    Ken
    Cold starts sound the same with/without GPF. The (very) noticeable difference is when increasing revs. And this observation is NOT from YouTube videos.
     
  24. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2019
    2,122
    Copenhagen
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    A.B
    Could you warm it up and show us some revs?

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  25. Gianfranco341

    Gianfranco341 Karting

    Sep 12, 2017
    119
    Full Name:
    Gianfranco Zanoni
    What do you do with such a car in Switzerland ? I live close to Switzerland and I go there often just to refuel with 98 octane gasoline but I come back immediately . You can’t drive fast . Nowhere .
     

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