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Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by Ferrari 308 Vetro, Oct 16, 2018.
What you think?
What will be the next Generation?
Your choices are not mutually exclusive - I say 1 and 4. So yes 812 last non-turbo, non-hybrid and next one will be v12 non-turbo hybrid. Of course, a spider 812 still counts as 812, which is likely to arrive soon.
It already looks like like the V12 GTC4Lusso is being killed off next year, so there are other indications that they are preparing for tighter emissions (so fewer V12s) as they break the 10k production limit for the small car makers with looser emissions limits.
Some of the poll choices feature overlap so its hard to pick one. We've been saying for a long time that its hard to imagine how they can get more out of this particular V12- yet they keep getting more and more power, and making it run and sound better. And they managed to turn it into a hybrid with the LF. So its very possible they keep it moving forward, I sure hope so. But my gut feeling wonders if we are getting near the end of when Ferrari can utilize a large capacity NA V12 (very thirsty and not very good on emissions). It is so very special so I hope they always offer it.
the hybrid mule v12 has already been posted so we know its at least being tested....
The capital markets day information seems to suggest that hybrid will supplement turbo - to be used as a lag-remover. But does this apply to the V8 only? Seems hard to believe that the V12 will use turbo and hybrid, that’s quite a redevelopment programme given the V8 and maybe a V6 will be hybridised.
If the V12 uses turbo and hybrid it will be smaller capacity, maybe 5 litres? This would make it lighter, perhaps enough to counteract half or two thirds of the battery pack, which would be welcome. But what do the purists say....? Personally I would probably be keeping my 812 in that scenario and adding the new model to it, for it to be eventually be sold on while the 812 stays.
I think they test things all the time. They really should be trying out different technology, this way they always have options. So I don't think the mere fact they are testing something means they are going to put it into production.
I love all the things the purists love, but I'm not truly a purist. I am open to new things. The key question is whether they can deliver the Ferrari sensations that I love: sound, free revving, endless power. Maybe they use some novel approach where we get all the benefits with little downside? If they go with a smaller engine with hybrid or turbo or a mix of both, I think I would keep my 812. The thing to remember, so far they have always delivered on making their cars special. So its tempting to say: Bah! Humbug! I will keep my beloved 812. But then they go and really impress you. I went into the 812 with skepticism. How much better could it be than my beloved F12b? Answer: quite a bit actually! So lets see what amazing things they come up with.
The former Ferrari CEO Sergio Marchionne once said “Our head of engine programs told me it would be absolutely nuts to put a turbocharger on the V12” . “no, there will be no turbocharged V12s from Ferrari”. Ferrari’s V12 in its current form is confortably under the current EU6B emissions legislation in Europe that will apply until 2021. But what about the 2021 Ultra-Low-Emission Vehicle legislation (ULEV)? Ferrari says “It will be met with the hybrid V12 powertrain”. Within this very restriceted club Lamborghini is also expected to maintain the aspirated V12 but the sucessor of the Aventador, not expected before 2022, most probably will have an hybrid V12 powertrain.
The V12's are a rarity in the motoring world but Ferrari twelve cylinder engines are so special that the simple fact they exist is a celebration of technical achievement.
48v mild hybrid will be the short term future.
By going 48v, I hope they go back to mpi.
tdf is perfect except gdi.
Anything electric even LaFerrari can be a long term I mean over 20years of collector car is still a question.
I am now looking for Enzo to end collection with tdf and svj 63 and be done with pre electric cars.
Can not wait for electric track cars.
I am willing to bet that you do not keep the 812 when the hybrid V12 comes out. It will be for the very same reason chosen for the 812 - quite a bit better and still have the NA V12. Both flagships would be too redundant IMO. Would have made more sense to keep the F12 (last PF and ties to Enzo via LdM) and then work the "next one" progression. Good problem to have!
I think a lot depends on how reduced is the capacity of the V12 hybrid or turbo.
Personally I think I’d prefer a 5.0l hybrid vs say a 4.5l turbo as at least you keep the NA V12 sound.
There are more iterations to come with current engine for sure, but then the next gen will be a smaller capacity (say 3 litre) V12 turbo hybrid.
3L would be 250cc/ cylinder- a very important capacity in Ferrari history. This would have even smaller pistons and it might give them the chance to make an engine that revs even faster (I only know so much about engines- its a bit like discussing a favorite sports team and the trades they might make). There are a few ways they could incorporate turbos and hybrid. So I think its important to keep an open mind. I'm excited to learn what they do.
It sure is a good problem to have. If I can do it, I'd probably want to keep the 812 as the last of the big NA unassisted V12s and then the new one as the new era.
It is hard to tell what impact the turbo/hybrid will have. The 458 has not really spiked in value, the last version the Speciale has held itself together. But no great push in value as the last NA V8. Maybe the V12 will be different, I do not know, for me it has always been the real deal as far as a Ferrari is concerned. I loved the V8 NA, but it always felt a little bit contrived, the V12 in the various versions has always felt that little bit more special. It is also true that the V8 turbo is an exceptional power plant, simply incredible in daily use, even if some of the drama was lost. We must assume the V12 Turbo/hybrid will also be exceptional, will pull like a train (The v12 NA tends to need a bit of work)and I am sure we will all be talking about the seamless power and torque of the installation. I do feel in 10 years time, 458, f12, Lusso and 812 standard models will have a strong following, I am not saying collectable as such, but will remain with a steady value. Just as the California V8 NA will become the bargain route into Ferrari old style NA experience. The dual clutch really made these last gen cars a step up over the 59/430 era.
So get ready for another Ferrari masterclass when they unleash the next gen V8 Turbo/hybrid and the V12 Turbo/Hybrid. and V6 Turbo/hybrid We are not far away.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. In my mind the V12 is really at the heart of Ferrari. Yes, I am aware, Mr. Enzo Ferrari raced different engines, but the V12 is what I think of first when I think of Ferrari.
You are right, they have to move forward. They went to fuel injection, ABS, paddles, you name it. They can't stay in the past. I think there is an opportunity to do a setup where you retain the NA exhaust sound while turning the turbo into a kind of electric powered supercharger. I hope they do something like that where we keep the sound. That's because I think for many of us, sound=energy*. And these cars are all about energy. (*that phrase is borrowed from member Traveller).
You are right about the V8 cars value. But I would note the Speciale has held up better than the Scuderia. Is that because the Scuderia came out during the financial crisis? Or that the Speciale is the first of these cars with DCT? I agree the DCT is a good place to draw a line between two different eras. Though, its not just the DCT that is a prominent factor. I would note it seems like locating a nice, clean, later model year 458 Italia /Spider is becoming more difficult- at least here in the USA. I don't know if its showing up in valuations though.
I think we will be able to better judge the V8T vs V8 NA when the Pista has been in owners hands for some time. I agree the V8T is a very impressive engine. I really do love the sound of my 458 vs the 488 though. Its just me. I know people who prefer the 488. I am hoping the Pista will bring back some of that sense of energy. I noticed at a recent day at the track that the 488 GTBs sounded much better from the outside (again just my impression). (by the way the Portofino also sounds very good!) Base on some of the latest reviews/ tests of the Pista, it seems they have delivered a real winner. I am very excited about this car.
To come back to the V12 discussion. I think as long as they keep the V12 with its sound and smoothness, fury at the top end, and feeling of unlimited power, then I think they will have another winner.
So we all agree it will be the last non Turbo, non Hybrid V12. I think this also, I would guess the next Generation will be a V12 Hybrid engine. Lets see…
Finaly the 812 Superfast is the last of it's Kind, last of the big natural engines….
I wonder if this electric turbo system patented by Ferrari could save the V12 and its beautiful sound.
not my photo, but for our EU members, why are they testing this now? Is this just for a new model year, or is this a new powerplant?
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Looks like equipment to test emissions. The new WLTP test was introduced last month, about 20% higher readings for CO2 for most companies plus there is a list of other emissions that are also highly regulated. If you test and declare a figure you or your customers pay more tax, if you don't declare you can't sell. Many manufacturers have not declared for a number of models because they figure there is no point to get a terrible result and are trying to rush through new calibrations, engine trims or even new powertrains. Too little notice was given for manufacturers to fully get on top of the situation. But you can understand after the VW scandal regulators want to get stronger with the industry. The people who have tried to cheat the system are in a bit of trouble here, everyone else having to join in of course.
It gets worse next year with RDE coming September 2019. This is where customer cars will be tested in use and if they don't meet a manufacturer's declared results a very heavy penalty or even a 'stop sale' can be issued.... Therefore the result declared needs to also have a margin of safety in it. The implications for future model replacement cycles are that previous patterns are not a good indicator of what will happen over the next couple of years.
Improves the rear design
That's absolutely right. The equipment installed on the rear of the 812 shown on post 17 is made by the German company AVL and it's purpose is the following:
Real Driving Emissions (RDE)
The upcoming EU6d Emission Regulation will implement Real Driving Emissions as an additional type approval requirement within the
2017 - 2020 timeframe.
The Real Driving Emissions (RDE) legislation is adding the road as a new environment for emission testing and certification. Compared to current test environments, which are designed and optimized for perfect reproducibility and a removal of external influences, driving a vehicle on the road under "real-life" conditions will never be 100% reproducible. The influence of the road profile, the ambient conditions and the traffic situation as well as the behavior of the driver will significantly influence the results. One-to-one comparison of test results will not be possible; instead it is necessary to handle and evaluate the test data using statistical methods. The RDE legislation will require engines to be clean under all operating conditions. This will impose significant challenges on the design and the calibration of engines. Here RDE can become a door opener for alternative technologies as well as for alternative development processes.
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so for those of you across the pond, on currently produced and selling models, like the 812, will you need this re-certification? Will this be a year by year, or model by model requirement?
Talk about planned obsolescence. Guess I'll mount a seat to my roomba and just program waypoints for it on the way to work.
AVL is an Austrian Company, based in Graz as you can see on the plate ;-)
The equipment installed on the rear of the 812 shown on post 17 is made by the German company AVL and it's purpose is the following:
I thank you for the correction because AVL is in fact an Austrian company world leader in these highly specialized technological fields. The fact that AVL has around 25 facilities and offices in Germany, probably more than in all the rest of Europe, that's what mislead me to mistake the nationality.
It really affects everyone, especially as far as Ferrari are concerned. The changes that this will require to powertrains will need to be sold worldwide because they probably won’t have two completely different strategies. RDE probably does not apply retrospectively, so cars produced after a certain date will be affected - I think that date is September 2019. It is not easy to be clear because there tends to be some wriggle-room on interpretation of the regulations and manufacturers are always negotiating and consulting with the regulators.
It could foreshorten production for some models, in Ferrari’s case 488 or perhaps even 812, already rumours exist about the ending of V12 Lusso. One thing that may happen is that if a car’s particular issue is only extra CO2 rather than some of the emissions that have banned levels (such as NOx I believe) then Ferrari get a fine per car. Guess who gets to pay that...
It’s hard to know exactly how the landscape lies for Ferrari but it will be complicated and as I said before, is likely to disturb the model replacement cycle. At capital markets day they already talked about 15 new models. Some of that will have been forced on them, and this stuff is very expensive. They are increasing prices and seem to want to launch an SUV and a mid-engined car above 488. Taking so much product and pricing risk in such a short space of time might not have been something they would have voluntarily elected to do.