812 Superfast - Last non Turbo, last non Hybrid V12?

if they go the pista route and make 3000+ 812 TDFs i wld def keep my f12 tdf!

 

I can't argue with that, specially if - like for the Pista compared to the Speciale - they price the 812 VS above the market price for an F12 tdf...

 

According to their market call a few weeks ago, that is going to start happening... They have seen what Tdfs and Apertas did in the secondary market, and would prefer to get a piece of that action themselves.

 

Arguably, they have "a piece of that action" already due to what original owners have to go through to be awarded a Tdf (i.e. any LE) allocation.

The way I figure it, the resale on LE's is merely "breaking even" on what it took to be awarded an allocation...

As for the market days call, the indication is price of everything will be going up (presumably due to costs for hybridization and normal year-of-year increase and compliance with various government regulations including fines)

 

I would say that the F12/812 platform is likely the last to have a non-assisted NA V12. You still have an open top version and a rumored tdf version to go and you can count the Monza SP1 and Monza SP2 in that since its based on the same platform as well and came after. If there are other Icona series of the platform and they are not assisted then the 812s falls even father back as 'the last' one.

 

That seems to be the most likely prediction.

 

That's beyond ANY doubt. Question is, what displacement the next V12 ICEs will retain in the hybrid era?

 

No Turbo, you really sure ? Beyond any doubt ? Why do you say that ? Im going for a 3 litre V12 turbo hybrid as my speculation. The emissions rules will mean a NA engine even with hybrid is finished.

 

V12s staying naturally aspirated.

 

Good to know you know exactly what you want from future ferraris. NA V12 engine is a signature of Ferrari provenience. With conventional turbos the V12 will lose the signature they try to preserve, whereas adding the electric/hybrid component allows the V12 engine to make it even sharper and sing its song as it always did. And last but not least, Sergio Marchionne (R.I.P.) told the media something about that there will be no turbo V12, and I second that.

Btw. Happy New Year to everyone!

 

V12 Hybrid I'm all for.

V12 Turbo. No thanks. Sound will be ****.

Best part can enter idiotic congestion zones with a ****ing V12. LOL

 

Glad you know that.

 

Happy new year and glad you confirm no turbos. They must be performing some miracles to pass future emissions legislation. But if anyone can do it, Ferrari can.

 

You seem confident that the V12 NA will remain. Can you expand please?

 

I do not believe it will remain, it was another poster expressing that, not me.

 

Thanks. I’m with you on the matter.

 

Agreed 100%. The 812 platform will be the last of the Mohicans. Any V12 come after that will be assisted by electricity.

 

Ferrari CTO Michael Leiters said NO to further hybrid V12s at this year’s Geneva Motor Show:

“It’s very important to differentiate which car I want (a hybrid system) in... If we’re doing a V-12, I’m not thinking about hybridization. It’s a contradiction. Maybe we would get a little reduction in consumption with a hybrid, but it doesn’t make sense.”

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/geneva-auto-show/a26789176/ferrari-michael-leiters-hybrids-interview-geneva-2019/


So the question to ask is what the future role of the V12 will look like within the portfolio. As we know the new top of the line flagship car (F173) comes with a Hybrid V8 powertrain. What does that mean for the V12 if it’s not considered worthy to be the top engine anymore? Will there be V12s in the standard range anyway or just for Iconas? Also it seems rather unlikely that the next hyper car will feature a V12 if there won’t be any electric assist.

 

It appears Ferrari has decided on a future that involves electric hybrid+turbos so that immediately means no V12s (twice over!)

Will the V10 previously used in F1 debut?

This would be decidedly different than the 458/Speciale being the "end of the naturally aspirated V8", this would be the literal end of the V12 in any variation (excepting Icona/limited editions)

Does Ferrari "go there"? After all, for more than 2 years has MHLeiters been "fighting for the V12":

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/ferrari-s-naturally-aspirated-v12-engines-will-stick-around-for-a-bit-more-117395.html

the article above:

Despite the excellent LaFerrari that uses a naturally aspirated V12 engine and electric propulsion, people feared that all lesser models would be gifted a downsized turbocharged V8 engine instead. While that wouldn't have affected the dynamic performances of the vehicles, it would have definitely put a serious dent into their appeal and personality.

and this direct quote from former CEO:

Well, Sergio Marchionne might not be to everyone's taste, but he's no fool when it comes to the halo brand of his company. Speaking to Autocar, he assured everybody on Ferrari's future. ‘‘We will always offer a V12,” he said. “Our head of engine programs told me it would be absolutely nuts to [put a] turbocharger on the V12, so the answer is no. It [will be] naturally aspirated, with a hybrid [system].”

Even Leiters said the same here from May 1, 2017:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1110209_marchionne-says-ferrari-will-always-offer-naturally-aspirated-v-12s

"The EU6C legislation will be a challenge, but we have a solution," said Ferrari technical chief Michael Leiters. "After that comes the 2021 Ultra-Low-Emission Vehicle legislation (ULEV), which will be met with the hybrid V-12 powertrain.”

And, go back 7 years ago, V12+hybrid was the "future":
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1074474_ferrari-hybrid-tech-will-secure-v-12-six-cylinder-possible

So, 2 years ago, V12+hybrid was directly indicated, now:

If we’re doing a V-12, I’m not thinking about hybridization. It’s a contradiction

How to resolve these contradictory statements?

I think, from then to now, Ferrari's thinking has "evolved" and that evolution is V12 will no longer exist as a flagship, no turbos, no hybrid tech, so, what will happen with the Ferrari V12?

Hmm, perhaps look at what's happening up the street:

https://carbuzz.com/news/new-hybrid-lamborghini-aventador-will-have-over-1000-hp

...the two-seater supercar will be built on a new carbon chassis packaging three powertrain elements: the front axle drive unit with two electric motors, a backbone center section housing the batteries and the rear drivetrain housing a third e-motor, a new dual-clutch transmission, and a V12. As expected, the next Aventador will pack a modified version of Lamborghini’s naturally aspirated 6.5-liter V12 engine (1000+HP)

further on it reads:

"The Aventador replacement will be naturally aspirated and a plug-in hybrid, because this is the best mix of emotion and DNA for Lamborghini. For the moment it is not a problem to be homologated worldwide,” Lamborghini’s chief technology officer, Maurizio Reggiani, added.

"For the new Aventador, I am confident we’ll be able to introduce the particulate filters we need for Euro 7 emissions (note: Euro 7 is not written yet, check back in 2 years). For these, it is not a question of turbocharging. Instead, we will make the hybrid vehicle emotional, sexy, and what the customer will want to have. This is the challenge.”


No luck there, Lamborghini is advertising, ~2 years in advance, new model will be V12 +hybrid, but, Ferrari is saying no turbo, no hybrid, no downsizing the engine:
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2019/03/14/ferrari-going-hybrid-but-keeping-na-v12

So, what will Ferrari do? They have eliminated all options (well, supercharging was not mentioned, that would not be sufficiently 'emissions friendly' (as it is less efficient fuel usage indicates)) other than pure naturally aspirated, do they go bigger than 6.5L? They would receive heavy CO2 penalties in EU and maybe elsewhere too? And, unless the work some great engine magic, would a successor V12 have more HP than the BB? And, if so, would it not then follow its price would also be higher than the BB? Would a 'front engine GT' with 1000HP priced at 700Euro or more actually be the plan? I do not believe so, I think the V12 plan is there is no plan because there will be no more V12, at least for regular production, so, what's this "fight" all about that Leiters mentions? Is it to receive exemptions from emissions compliance so Ferrari can continue with the V12?

As an aside:
For MY2020 and beyond, I think the 812 will see automatic emergency braking and maybe new head's up display and blind spot indicators:

https://www.afr.com/lifestyle/cars-bikes-and-boats/ferraris-812-superfast-gives-you-hightech-help-to-go-to-the-limit-20170317-gv06hi

This in addition to gasoline particular filters for the exhaust to comply with particulate number regulations

 

But, where are we headed?

If the following is to be believed, pretty much only the USA, UK and France will allow new petrol-based cars to be sold after 2029:

https://autovistagroup.com/news-and-insights/sweden-ban-petrol-and-diesel-pressure-mounts-germany

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/23/sweden-will-ban-sale-of-gasoline-diesel-cars-after-2030-germany-lags-behind/

https://www.electrive.com/2019/01/22/sweden-joins-nations-dropping-combustion-engines-target-2030/

I do realize none of this is "absolutely certain" but it is making a mess of plans for car companies...

For instance, if Ferrari develops a new V12, they need it to be sold for 4+ model years to make a good return on it, 2+ years if they double current pricing...but then I think they will have a hard time finding sufficient audience to purchase a regular production car at those prices...the BB is a test case for that...

 

Thank you for the great summary.

As far as I can draw a picture of the German situation, I can definitely say there is no total ICE ban on the horizon. Two months ago the mobility commission decided on (more or less wishful) target that it would be nice to have 10 million electric cars on the streets by 2030. The total number of passenger cars in Germany is around 47 million vehicles.

So even if there will be a future scenario where 100% of the national fleet will be electric (something I don’t believe by the way) the transition phase will go on for decades.

If you want to achieve something immediately you need a different leverage, one that starts with the existing fleet. The problem is not the ICE but the fossil fuels. For those alternatives are available. You can run an ICE eco-friendly if you want to. Unfortunately everyone seems to be just focused on e-mobility. With that alone a fast change is not possible. What we need is real technology openness.

 

Speaking of V12 sound ...