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812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso/F12/812S' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. aobao1993

    aobao1993 Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2017
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  3. aobao1993

    aobao1993 Formula Junior

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  4. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    Thread here:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147845197/
     
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  5. IlModenese

    IlModenese Rookie

    Jan 15, 2008
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    I believe the F12tdf at its peak traded at or close to $1.3 - $1.4MM at Sotheby's and rumors' were that it traded at higher prices in the private market. These values were achieved for cars that had initial sticker prices around $700k - more or less - which highlighted they were special and very well equipped cars.

    The specs are important for these cars and more "Traditional Ferrari" they are, the more value they will maintain in the long run (in the short run novelty value wins). Think F40, F50, La Ferrari, 288GTO (a Ferrari is traditionally red and a special Ferrari even more so). Ferrari engineers put so much time, effort and importance in eliminating weight from these special versions, (a different philosophy compared to their GT siblings), with carbon, special materials, etc, etc.., and most buyers go straight back and add leather and accessories back that are the exact opposite of what they were built for. The purer the car remains to its roots, the better it will age, and the more demand it will have in the long run.

    Another important factor that has been discussed at length in this thread is production numbers. If the 812VS is truly a limited numbered car and not a limited production car - like the Pista - then those numbers will matter. The general feeling in these threads was that less than 500 units (like the 599 GTO - slightly more units if you include the Aperta) is truly limited. Less than 800 (like the F12tdf ) is acceptably limited. More than 800 becomes more of a gimmick and the word limited is hard to justify. These general ideas/rules are also driven by the fact that there are a number of classic Ferrari's out there that are not limited by number, but have been produced in numbers far, far lower then these.

    The 812VS will be a great car and will probably keep and raise its value based on other factors like being the last Ferrari NA 12V Engine (hopefully with no electric or other type of help), etc, etc.., but it seems that up to 1,500 units may be produced between the Coupe and the Aperta version. If this is truly the last V12 NA, I personally would have preferred either less than 500 or a limited production run that allowed for a broader distribution.

    My last observation, is that all these rumors' and threads that have accelerated since the beginning of this year on the 812VS seem to have started to move 599GTO and f12tdf values and even more importantly it seems that inventory for these 2 models has significantly decreased. This could be driven by 1) either hopefuls to get an 812VS allocation but didn't and consequently snapped up a GTO or tdf and/or 2) the general feeling that the 812VS will be produced in larger numbers and consequently the GTO and tdf are a way to have a more exclusive Ferrari. If the 812VS is electrified in any way, then all bets are off and the 812SS/GTS and F12tdf become the last truly NA V12 and Limited numbered Ferrari's in the market for collectors.

    Personally I would like one of each :) GTO is the passing of the baton from one era to the next with a magnificent sound. The tdf is a pure beast with classic Ferrari curvy lines that will live forever given how it clearly takes clue from the 250GTO and the 812VS seems to look more towards the future with its more edge lines and exaggerated aggressiveness.

    I just hope that all these cars will be driven and not just stored - what makes a Ferrari in the long run is its history, where its been and what it has achieved. It needs to build its own character. One famous Enzo Ferrari saying was: "Race cars are neither beautiful not ugly. They become beautiful when they win"
     
  6. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    At this minimum, I expect that there will be some ducting from the six inlets (not scoops technically as they can’t do much scooping in that area) on the hatch to the large exits at the back, probably aided by a fan of some sort.

    Also wondering if the three vents per side behind the rear wheels aren’t somehow linked to the exhaust shroud and diffuser behind the rear wheels.
     
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  8. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    I heard so many and incredible rumors about what is concealed in the trunk... I prefer just to wait: maybe there isn't anything but the trunk, let's see.

    Ciao
     
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  9. Newjoint

    Newjoint Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2016
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    As long as there are no dead bodies
    In the trunk I’m ok with whatever Ferrari decides


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  10. leopoldo

    leopoldo Formula Junior

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    Purosangue ?
     
  11. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    That’s what I thought also and wrote in the other thread.
     
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  13. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    Right, although your theory of a turbo-compounding system seems a bit too ambitious.

    The exhaust is a curiosity for me and wondering if any connection to the inlets with a sort of jet-pump effect.
     
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  14. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    Well, it is obvious it is not a trunk under those 6 inlets:

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  15. Maximus1977

    Maximus1977 Formula Junior

    Feb 13, 2016
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    Junk in the trunk....!
    Well, JLO is single again... Coinsidence...!?
     
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  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    #6338 JTSE30, Apr 16, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
    That price is quite low, that would seem to me to indicate production will be time limited not number limited. If number limited I would presume the price to be much higher, Euro 700-800K base.

    For reference, the 2016 F12TDF base price was 485K USD

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    Based on currency conversion (from website xe.com) the Euro price of 485K USD in 2016 would be 433K (Corrected, I had 543K), to give an idea.

    If the 812VS base price is Euro 500K then the idea of unlimited production other than time must prevail.

    However, if Ferrari instead sets the base price at 700-800K then numbered edition it will be.

    Yes, I know there have been private client reveals, but they would simply be the first in line, but in the end others will be able to order (within time restrictions), just like the SF90...
     
  17. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    FYI Euro € 500'000 is USD$ 600'000.

    Marcel Massini
     
  18. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

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    My guess is base price for the coupe around EUR 550k-600k inclusive of tax before options. Limited in time not numbered. The Monza wasn't numbered.
     
  19. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    And, € 500,000 in the year 2021 is € 67,000 more than the base price of the F12TDF in the year 2016...(I had incorrectly stated €543K for 2016 base price, sorry for that mistake)

    It is only due to the weaker USD that the USA conversion from Euro is 600 (or +115K from 2016) so I remain looking at the Euro price.

    And, my idea remains the same, the base price €500K is low for a numbered edition when it is compared to Ferrari's pricing strategy of leaving less on the table, and so I think the price should be much higher if numbered. But, maybe the price is not higher because the 'numbered' edition will be larger than ever before (999 or more). Will be curious to see what the actual announcement is...
     
  20. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

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    Still a relative bargain - the Pista was introduced above not only the release price, but also above the used market price of the Speciale (at a time the Speciale was trading above its introduction price).
    The same logic would have the new VS at a higher price not only than the initial price of the TdF, but also above the current market price for the TdF (which I guess is about 700K euros for real sales).
    I wonder how it will impact the different market prices if the new VS is introduced at a lower price than the TdF market price.
     
  21. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

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    I think when you add the full option list it will likely cost at least what the tdf is selling for in the second hand market
     
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  22. wrs

    wrs F1 Veteran
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    I like your view of this! Of course if this is true then it's like the Pista but I would buy the 812VS in that case, I don't care if I am not at the front of the line because I would like to drive and enjoy the car.
     
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  23. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula 3
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    That's curious, you are correct, from Ferrari's official documents I do not find anywhere that indicates any number maximum number of Monza's to be made... many references to 499 are found including at Ferrari dealers such as this:

    https://www.ferrarilakeforest.com/ferrari-monza-performance/

    And in TOFM refers to 499 but that's not an official legally binding document such as their annual stockholders report...curious...

    https://magazine.ferrari.com/en/cars/2019/06/27/news/ferrari-monza-sp2-sebastian-vettel-charles-leclerc-maranello-63283/
    The Monza SP1 and SP2 are the very first models in an extremely limited series - only 499 will be built - baptised Icona and inspired by the most important and iconic moments of Ferrari history.

    In comparison, if you look a the F12TDF, it was officially recognized at 799:

    https://auto.ferrari.com/en_us/sports-cars-models/past-models/f12tdf/
     
  24. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

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    And the monza cost almost 2mm euros. I don’t see personally why they would number the VS if the base price is around eur 550k-600k before options which is what a few of us here heard. But who knows Ferrari are masters when it comes to surprises so we should know soon
     
  25. leopoldo

    leopoldo Formula Junior

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    Well.. the rumours seems that will be 99% numbered like “1 of etc... 812? “ Even if I am agree with you that sounds strange to numbering this and not the Monza ......
     
  26. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

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    This is not what i personally heard ( 1 of 812) but of course I don’t know for sure we will only know soon
     
  27. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    Personally I don't think it's a surprise that the basic price is closer to TDF than Monza. The Monza was a completely reworked model, with totally new exterior and interior, including really extensive use of carbon fibre. It is more extreme than even the SP one-off models that certain customers commission, with a higher volume and a seven-figure price. You can see why 499 of those makes sense for Ferrari. The fact that they don't officially quote 499 may have more to do with there being less of them not more - no good building more cars than demand because you made an official commitment to a number, better not to officially commit. There could be more, but there could also be less, at least theoretically. And there is absolutely no way they or any other manufacturer would tell us if they made less than they expected. The Icona is a completely new line at a very high price, it takes every manufacturer a while to work out where the price/volume balance sits on a completely new model line. Icona seems smart to me. Smart business, smart engineering, smart concept, smart car, regardless of final volume. And they will have learned a lot from it.

    As for the 812 VS, the formula is already set with the GTO and the TDF. It is a very brave move to treble the price, even if you may be able to sell the cars. The art of Ferrari marketing is customer management and the kind of customers they are dealing with make repeated purchases. Being one of a limited number offered the car, even if that means you make a little (or at least don't lose), is not a case of 'Ferrari leaving something on the table' it's a question of Ferrari managing serial customers and earning the right to supply more cars to allow them to indulge their passion in the future. The customer base is growing globally, from what I can gather, so it stands to reason that the number at which this balance between rarity and price finds its equilibrium is higher than for the previous model. Or at least could be.

    I know there was a lot of contention much earlier in the thread suggesting that 800 was the maximum 'limited' volume a car like this could be produced in and Ferrari knows that. I don't really agree. I'm not saying they will build 999 limited examples, but if they did, at the price I believe they will ask for this car (I believe it to be the same as M. Massini) and given an increase in demand for this kind of model and the 20% or so price increase, I don't think Ferrari will have a problem. At a 100% price increase and 800-1,000 units it's a problem and the 20% price increase over TDF with no limit to volume, it's also a problem. I personally think it's pretty safe to say the estimate of pricing given is correct and there will be a limited number, even if its a bit higher than the TDF.
     
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  28. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

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