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812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso/F12/812S' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. leopoldo

    leopoldo Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2013
    564
    Italy
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    mark1
    Maybe a twin turbo v12??
     
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  3. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    6,168
    Bournemouth, UK
    Highly unlikely.
     
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  4. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    738
    Hockenheim, Germany
    The answer could be found in Ferrari's 2020 Sustainability Report. It says:

    "We believe internal combustion engines will remain important in Ferrari’s powertrain mix and therefore we continue to invest in new combustion engine technologies and the development or use of bio-fuels."

    With the EU's updated Renewable Energy Directive (RED II) there might be the possibilty they will make use of bio-fuels to to reduce the carbon footprint of especially the non-hybrid vehicles. This could for example work through an agreement with Shell to produce and supply a certain amount of bio-fuel to the market for every sold car.
     
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  5. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    I sure hope not!


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  6. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
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    Passione
    That seems unlikely to be ready by the time the 812 replacement is due. And we need all developed countries to offer biofuels at the pump which I doubt will happen anytime soon. There are already millions of electric/hybrid cars in circulation and very few charging areas still...
     
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  8. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    738
    Hockenheim, Germany
    The mentioned RED II is an EU specific directive. What is valid for the EU does not need to be valid for other countries. For those there might be different regulations. Moreover nobody said there has to be a bio-fuel coverage of 100% for every V12 right from the beginning, but every little share that is compensable helps to better fulfill carbon targets. Plus for the eligibility it is not important that the very car is filled up with biofuels but that Ferrari gurantees that they will (via a partner) supply sufficient amounts in the networks.

    Not sure what impact that should have on Ferrari's V12 future..?
     
  9. faykau

    faykau Formula Junior

    Dec 19, 2013
    643
    I still think the TDF looks better overall. There are some improvements on the 812C over the TDF but I still can't get over those soft curvy lines on the door of the 812. And the front of the TDF still looks more aggressive and coherent to me.
     
  10. George330

    George330 Formula 3

    Oct 19, 2009
    1,118
    Switzerland
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    George
    One small caveat: no Valkyries have been delivered yet and no customer-delivered engine has done any miles, so no one knows if the engine is tractable and reliable, if it will grenade in 10,000 miles etc.
    Also the Valkyrie engine has been designed to fit in a $3 million car. The Ferrari philosophy is to produce a V12 that can be used on anything from regular production cars costing less than 500k to hypercars costing millions. It simply cannot fit an engine that probably costs more than a well-specced 812 into a regular production car and even if it could it probably would be homologated in all the markets that Ferrari is present in.

    As attractive as the Valkyrie is, it is not a great commercial solution for someone like Ferrari.


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  11. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
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    Feb 24, 2016
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    I agree with you, let's wait to see what is the reliability of the Valkyrie engine but Cosworth seems quite confident.
    Only 150 units of the Valkyrie will be produced therefore the costs for Aston Martin related with the development and the making of so few engines must be stratospheric. A future Ferrari V12 will be produced in numbers that are thousands and should the Purosangue also have this motorization option, the number of engines made will increase very substantially eventually reducing the cost per unit.
    The Valkyrie despite being a $3 million car is street-legal and powered by the most powerful naturally aspirated V12 ever made . Because the naturally-aspirated V12 is the heart of Ferrari and a territory where it has always dominated during many decades, now just finding ways of keeping the V12 alive isn't sufficient and IMO Ferrari has to do more like beating categorically all the competition. Having Aston Martin achieved a V12 naturally aspirated with 1.000 hp the minimum we expect is that Ferrari soon supplants this number with an engine that is superior in every department.
     
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  13. ilcapodizurigo

    ilcapodizurigo Karting

    Oct 16, 2019
    166
    Los Angeles
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    John Meier
    Next V12 will be a hybrid IMHO. Impossible it will be a pure 6.5L with 0 assistance. In other words a N/A V12 engine with a hybrid powertrain. This engine should then appear in the Purosangue along with the PurosangueT (with F8 engine) as well as in the 812SF successor of course...
     
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  14. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
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    The hybrid powertrain using a naturally aspirated V12 will be an inevitability for the successor of the 812 SF and eventually also for one of the versions of the Purosangue. My guess is that it will be a light hybrid with two or three electric motors with a maximum power of around 150 hp and a naturally aspirated V12 with a power of at least 900 hp and possibly 1.000 hp.
     
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  15. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Rookie

    Jun 5, 2009
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    A car with two or three electric motors cannot be defined as a light hybrid.
    I rather see a development of the 6.5 l F140 for the purosangue and the 812SF replacement.
    A brand new downsized V12 with electric motors is more logical for the Laferrari replacement.
    The beginning of a new generation I guess
    Wild speculation I know..
     
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  16. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Feb 4, 2014
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    Ferrari will produce what it sees fit to support its business plan as a public company. This includes all lines (production, hyper car and Icona). If regulations, new buyers and existing good clients push for hybridization and electrification then that's where they will go. Downsizing in combination with electric assist for the NA V12 would be the indicator that they are not investing in getting the big NA V12 compliant to future regulations. They might just do a quieter, cleaner, rinse-and-repeat NA V12 just to carry the crossover to hybrids and electrics for a few more years. That would be sad but more likely since most (not all) post how excited they are to hand over money for smaller engines, hybrids, full electrics and lots of gadgets.
     
  17. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    Nov 8, 2003
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    I'd rather have TT than electric
     
  18. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    If its a choice between an electric helper but a clean exhaust sound or a muffled exhaust sound and no electric helper, I will take the help. Actually, I can use all the help I can get! ;)
     
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  19. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2016
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  20. GRZEPAPA

    GRZEPAPA Formula Junior

    May 11, 2007
    289
    could this be done with the tri colore GWR livery please.
     
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  21. 444sp

    444sp Formula Junior

    Dec 18, 2016
    468
  22. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    3,753
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    Hydrogen may help the ICE to survive, but one challenge V12 are facing is that in terms of efficiency, they now have more drawbacks than advantages. Initially the complexity of increasing the number of cylinders was providing more efficiency by reducing the capacity of each cylinder, increasing the specific output for a given engine capacity. This advantage has diminished over time with advances in fuel injection (among other things), and now it has completely vanished (no one has thought of a 1,500cc V12 engine for a very long time).
    So the V12 has some magic in it but today for an ICE it's a totally inefficient solution.
     
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  23. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    738
    Hockenheim, Germany
    Great to see to see one of the world's largest automotive corporations having such passion and courage. Mr. Toyoda seems to be a real visionary.
     
  24. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    738
    Hockenheim, Germany
    For racing purposes the V6 hybrid configuration really seems to be the way to go at the moment, especially for endurance racing. That doesn't mean that the V12 cannot profit from all the efforts that foucs uns making the ICE clean though. A clean road-going V12, I mean what's not to like.
     
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  25. Maximus1977

    Maximus1977 Formula Junior

    Feb 13, 2016
    270
    A battery has a tremendous amount of practical drawbacks on the track. Not just the chaging part, but mostly weight and big safety issues. Crashes happen on the track and I don't want to ponder what happens when the car is under current and a poor equipped safety crew have to provide assistance. I doubt the next Challenge car from ferrari will be a hybrid; unless they are seriously forced top do so.
     
  26. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
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    In 2019 while flying from Paris to Lisbon there was a young man sitting next to me in the plane. After the take-off we exchanged some brief words of criticism about the fact that European air companies now only provided on-flight paid food and when the plane reached the cruise altitude he asked me what my professional activity was. I explained to him briefly what I did and then asked back what did he do for a living. He explained he was a professional race driver and as soon as he said that the empathy between us became evident with the initial circumspect exchange of words turning into a friendly conversation about racing cars and Ferraris. He mentioned he had raced several times in the 24 hours of Le Mans and some hours later when I typed his name, Olivier Lombard, on the search engine, I realized that he was a Frenchman and the youngest driver ever to win the 24 Le Mans, in 2011 at the age of 19. He referred to me that he was the official driver of an hydrogen prototype racing car named Mission H24, developed to race the 24 hours of Le Mans until 2024, and he was heading with the team to the Estoril racing circuit where they would be carrying tests during a week. I couldn’t resist to ask Olivier what the feeling was of driving the Mission 24 and he replied in a very sincere and modest manner that was like driving an ICE car of identical power, emphasizing the fact that in his opinion hydrogen was going to be the future.
    Recently I read that Olivier Lombard, now 29 years old, is the head of a hydrogen road car project named HOPIUM. The first prototype is expected to be ready during 2021 and the commercialization is planned for 2026. As the pictures show the HOPIUM will be a Berlina sports car with a power of around 500 cv, a range of 1000 Km on a full tank and a selling price of around 120.000 Euros.

    Will Olivier Lombard become the french Elon Musk of hydrogen cars? We will have to wait at least until 2026 to find out how this project develops. However, the signs are positive for hydrogen vehicles because the renewable hydrogen whose price now ranges between $2,50 - $6,80 per Kilogram, may drop until 2030 to $1,40 /Kg and to $0,80/Kg by 2050.


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  27. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    738
    Hockenheim, Germany
    Was talking more about top tier racing like F1 and WEC etc. What will be the powertrain of the next challenge car is indeed an interesting question. So there is no need to think about the overall most efficient package possible as it's just a one make series. In theory they could run NA V12s with some kind of bio- or e-fuels (like Porsche with the Carrera Cup Series) or hydrogen (maybe further in future) etc. It would be considered carbon neutral and the competitiveness of the V12 doesn't matter as it's just racing against itself. I kind of doubt though that this is what we will see in the Ferrari Challenge. Next logical step would be that the next challenge car is based on LB and adapting its V6 hybrid powertrain. Alternatively, maybe a lightweight SF90 without the hybrid components? Could be also linked to the rumored F40 Icona.
     
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  28. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Rookie
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    Phenomenal account. Makes me reconsider the usage of headphones while on airplanes.
     
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