812 VS Rumors | Page 328 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. leopoldo

    leopoldo Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2013
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    If hybrid why some days ago A top manager from Ferrari declared that the v12 will not be hybrid ? I don’t remember his name but I think is a top manager involved on the engine enginenering
     
  2. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
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    Can't tell you why that is. I also think it is hard to trust such statements 100% at this stage.

    But the answer may simply be that Ferrari is able to use their emission quota differently now that they are having hybrids in the lineup. The introduction of the SF90 and now the little V6, as well as the "eco mode" programming of the Roma and Porto M in Auto, may simply mean that they can shift more of their total emissions quota to the V12. It will probably also feature an 8 or 9 speed trans which helps. And lastly the FUV will definitely be hybrid. It would make zero sense for them to create an SUV that will see a lot of city use without it being able to drive in eco zones. The 812 successor might not be hybrid, but it would be down right stupid of Ferrari not to make the FUV a hybrid. It's a tall whale of a car anyway, so weight won't matter. So going by that, it might come with the 296 powertrain, and perhaps in a V12 as some suggest.

    As for displacement, why only four litres? Smaller may as well be 5 or 4.5. At any rate, with an 8 or 9 speed transmission, they can make power with rpm. Getting a V12 of that size to rev to 10k is a non-issue. Piston speed and the forces on the rotating assembly will still be a lot less than those found in the 4.5 litre V8 in a 458 revving to 9100. Valves are smaller and lighter too, so it's not like they need solid roller followers in the valve train just for that.

    As much as I think the 812C engine is cool, the thing about it revving to 9.5k being special, is just fluff, sorry to say. It's a lot more impressive that Porsche does this with a 4.0 flat six. Imagine the engine in the 812C as an 8 litre mill spinning at 9200 rpm while making over 1000 hp. That's what that comparison is all about. So a 4.0 V12? Let's see 11.5k or 12k rpm. That is what they will need in order to up the power. The hp wars are still raging, and Ferrari with their hybrids are leading the charge. It would be odd if they released a V12 that was slower and with less power.

    We'll see. It's a long way out still.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  3. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany
    The date where we can expect the update on the EU emission regulations is July 14. However Ferrari still falls under the small manufacturer exemptions as they sell less than 10.000 cars in the EU. The standard limits do not apply for Ferrari, they can negotiate individual targets.
     
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  4. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
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    Passione
    Until they announce the SUV at which point they will exceed the 10,000 units a year
     
  5. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Yes but is it total Ferrari production for a year or total sales inside the EU for a year? Which figure has the total sales to not exceed 10,000 units for the exemption from certain EU standards during a year? I thought it was total production even though only a percentage stays in the EU. The EU total production is smaller now with the U.K. not included.
     
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  6. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany
    Total shipments were 4,895 units in 2019 and 4,818 units in 2020 for EMEA. That includes many important non-EU markets like VAE, UK, Switzerland etc. IMO rather unlikely that the SUV will increase EU-only shipments to over 10.000 units.
     
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  7. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    Exceeded 10 K already in 2019.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  8. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
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    Don't confuse 10k units per year worldwide with 10k units per year within the EU. Even with the FUV, they will not sell 10k units in the EU. What is the target worldwide including that? 12k I think? So still far from 10k per year within the EU.
     
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  9. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Does anybody know where the rules state the 10,000 unit limit is for EU only and does not apply worldwide ??
    I have hard time believing that's a EU limit since the EU are working to limit worldwide pollution from EU sourced products
    Aren't GPF's fitted to cars being exported out of EU ??
     
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  10. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
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    "An application for a derogation from the specific emissions target calculated in accordance with Annex I may be made by a manufacturer of fewer than 10 000 new passenger cars or 22 000 new light commercial vehicles registered in the Union per calendar year [...]"
    L_2019111EN.01001301.xml (europa.eu)
     
  11. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    It is quite expensive to make country specific homologations (for emissions), so, Ferrari simply creates one exhaust system that can pass all relevant country homologations, so, yes, GPFs fitted everywhere even in Australia where their high sulfur fuels will result in clogging of the GPF (that Ferrari, I presume will replace under warranty)
     
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  12. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Cool - If thats the case then the V12 should survive another decade
     
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  13. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Cars are only being fitted with GPF if the manufacture does not "discriminate" so to speak. Porsches shipped to the US and down under for example, are not fitted with GPF. From what I understand, Ferrari simply fit all cars with GPF as it is the easiest from a production standpoint, it is not something the EU forces them to do.
     
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  14. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany
    In theory it can survive in the long term if the derogation possibility stays in place. The upcoming EV for sure has an positive impact on Ferrari's overall fleet and gives the "signal" that they are trying to reduce emissions.
     
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  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    Just the same, *something* is going on that would indicate otherwise.

    Namely, where is the 812 replacement?

    @day355 indicates end of 2023 for a reveal, not even production.

    If the 812 had a "normal" 5 year run, its last year would of been 2022, thus, a reveal for its replacement being rumored only to be end of 2023, that would leave a gap of one if not two or more years between V12 production (its replacement should of been revealed by March 2022...apparently that's not going to happen)

    That tells me that things are not normal, not as expected and with the direct comments from Leiters regarding 'fighting' for the V12 (from 2+ years ago) tells me there may not be another V12 in regular series production ever...

    Especially with the draconian presumed EURO 7 regulations due to be formerly announced in less than 5 months time...

    At this point I presume the V12 is out, the 296GTB coincidentally having same exact power output as the 812c (830PS) is a subtle indication, to me, that Ferrari has given up on the V12 for regular series production.

    If the expected hypercar reveal (apparently within the next 2 years) does not use a V12, that would be solid evidence to me it's all over for the V12.
     
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  16. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Having a gap for almost a year with no V12 seems odd. It might of course be Ferrari trying to make people forget the V12 lol.

    But if they are quitting the V12, I'd suggest that Maranello tells their employees and the dealers to stop taking about it:D

    It is so fundamental to Ferrari and they know this. Doubt they will drop it if they don't have to.

    As for the F80? From what I get it's a V6 hybrid based on the F1 setup. But that to me has nothing to do with whether or not Ferrari keeps the V12. It's just Ferrari trying to incorporate their racing pedigree.

    The fat lady has not sung yet, so let's not be caught up in too much doom and gloom.
     
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  17. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
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    Purosangue will be revealed before and it probably will have a V12 version.
     
  18. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    When you consider the 812SF essentially went out of production from August 2020, and a "reveal" of its replacement being (rumored) end of 2023, with production maybe starting in 2024, you are now realizing a 4 YEAR gap in regular series V12 hardtop coupe production...

    to me it seems that never is not doom and gloom but simply reality

    by having a rumored reveal at end of 2023, and Euro7 regulations being first presented by end of this year, it seems any factory talk about the V12 is wishful thinking...

    If Euro7 is largely the same as Euro6/6d then the V12 should remain possible, but, if Euro7 is as invasive as it seems to becoming by recent flurry of news stories, then no more V12, really, no more anything but pure EV (not even hybrids) from 2026...

    Just the same, the current reality is no V12 replacement (coupe) for at least 4 years...4 YEARS!
     
  19. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    My guess is Ferrari are waiting to see exactly what Euro 7 standards are so they can see how to revise the V12 to meet them hence the time gap between reveal
     
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  20. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    And it is exactly for that reason the 812GTS was hurriedly put together because it likely was their last opportunity to do a V12 regular series spider, and, as it turns out (due to SF90 reveal and resulting collapse of 812SF orders) kept the V12 production line working. But, the 812GTS needs to be out of production (for EU) by 2023 due to new crash test requirements, best I can figure that's why 812GTS production will not linger for a longer time period (although the 812c and 812cA will be made into 2023 so I presume their chassis/etc will adhere to the new crash test requirements, unless the end of production regulation exemptions are petitioned and accepted)
     
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  21. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Thats great information - So if the V12 does become Not feasible maybe its best to pick up an 812 GTS before production end ?
     
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  22. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    You are already quoting day355 and he said there is a new V12 coming. The only question he balked at was the placement location of that new V12.
    I think the V12 will be behind the driver in a new 'flagship' model Ferrari.
     
  23. ForeverCar

    ForeverCar Formula Junior

    Jan 20, 2017
    307
    Perhaps a new 812 replacement rumor thread would be good?:)
     
  24. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
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    I did, but the fact remains @day355 reveal would result in an 812 replacement model being in production 4 years after the 812SF was discontinued...

    And, the rumor day355 provided is far into the future (more than 2 years) many things can occur in that time period, and many things will occur in that time period that will great affect the ability for any combustion engine to be included in a new model for any country in the EU/China(since China very closely follows EU automobile regulations); So, it is possible Ferrari decides to make a V12 for everywhere outside of EU/China or not at all.

    The seriousness of the EU situation cannot be overstated, major manufacturers are already making EV-only pledges before Euro7 regulations are formally revealed (and before their ability to make sufficient batteries and sufficient country-based electrical systems are created)...

    Yes, Leiters has revealed (after the 812c announcement) that Ferrari is working on a new V12...let's hope it actually makes it to production, but 2023 for a reveal seems like a really long gestation period...and maybe it will not be made for EU/China (except for offroad use like the Monza in USA)
     
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  25. dcmetro

    dcmetro F1 Veteran

    Nov 27, 2007
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    I do believe so.

    This thread served us well, let's let it die in peace.
     
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