sounds exactly like a regular SF in Race mode to me....downshifts and acceleration from low rev range....can't it be that they are testing the 2021 SF model?
yes and no....the Pista is now 2 years old and TDF is 3 years old..as with all cars in the 2018/2019/2020 time range they over produced the pista...if you got an early car you still made 50-70k on the pista and probably 500k on the TDF .... i think they got the message about maintaining exclusivity ie new model introductions are down this year and rumours indicate that they are further delaying model introductions (ie the SF successor) ....however this against a challenging economic backdrop, so naturally values will suffer and premiums will be compressing....however this is not unique to Ferrari, but true for all manufacturers....it's a matter of timing and at this point in time probably not much point and the pre-owned market offers a lot better value....however all goes in cycles....the less people play the game, the less new cars will be bought, the more value stable they become and the LE models will fetch greater premiums.....however if you at that point don't have a buying history you won't get an allocation....so to answer your question...if you have a 5 year perspective then the game still might make sense assuming the market recovers ...but over the next 2-3 years probably no point @mepassione btw i PM'd you few weeks ago, take a look
I think very few were able to achieve £70k gain on the pista most of them are around £320 area which after you’ve specc’d them is breakeven at best, and that’s not taking into account dealer margin who are selling them. Question is how many cars had to be ordered new to get the pista ? One/two? A lusso only would lose you £100k. Tdf yes some made £500 but its unlikely F will let buyers make as much going forward plus you had to have 5 cars in your garage bought from new. Say you bought a portofino/lusso/SF... by the time you get the 812VS at the price Ferrari will sell them I doubt you’ll be making any money overall because as you said supply was so excessive that it destroyed residuals quickly making the game less appealing. I agree with you that as fewer buyers play the game supply will come down and within the next few years premium for LE cars should rise..
Then we get into the "garage queen" discussion and the argument becomes are these LE's really investments and if so there are way better ways to invest than LE cars. Recently I was offered - 1 of 600 (numbered) 2011 GT3RS 4L Porsches and turned it down. I couldn't come to terms with buying a car not to drive
[QUOTE = "SirPouyan, post: 147260568, member: 212186"] Ils essaient de créer un club de marque de super exclusivité au sein du groupe d'acheteurs F, et cela ne peut pas être une tâche facile. [/ QUOTE] For such a project , you need attractive cars...and it ll be the main problem in the next years ! who wants TT , kilometers of electric cables, a few noise but no sound in a very expensive heavy car ??? Not me, not my friends, not enthusiasts in the whole...
Agreed. As much as I’d like an 812VS and would happily accept an allocation, I wouldn’t be heartbroken if I was declined. The ‘base’ 812SF is already such a ferocious and engaging car that I don’t really need more. It can also accumulate miles with less financial consequence. If anything, I may then elect to build my own VS of sorts with Novitec lowering springs and their 22”/21” wheel set. The exhaust needs nothing and I fear a louder one may drown out the intake harmonics which currently sounds rather fantastic.
Actually the comment around accumulating miles with less financial consequences is incorrect. A 812VS with 20,000 miles will depreciate less than a 812 SF with 20,000 miles. It’s just that people tend to think of the 812VS value (or any other LE) including the premium it will command post-launch. Benchmark both cars on their list price and buying a LE and putting miles on it is cheaper every time. Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
Sorry I don't know. The only idea I have reminds me of a Scania engine truck device and so must be wrong. ciao
This doesn't take into account all the loses one would occur having to buy cars you dont want to get the VS
The main problem is that some people look and focus on this wrongly. You get a VS because of all the cars you bought........you don't (or shouldn't) buy cars just to get a VS.
So what are we saying then that VS are meant purely for investor type of buyers rather than real enthusiast? If you are an enthusiast and want a hardcore v12 do you need to buy a portofino+lusso+812SF+488 which you probably aren’t interested in to qualify for one? If I understand your view then the VS would be built to reward people who support financially the brand and that cannot be the right reasons and certainly not financially viable in the long run. What happens if people stop playing the game? Then they would go back to the old days and allocate those cars to proper enthusiast ( which maybalso be investors) but not just to pure speculators buying tons to flip them out straight away which these days proved very costly
In theory, I agree. In reality, ‘burner’ cars are often purchased and flipped after 6 months with financial loss for the primary purpose of improving one’s customer status and to hopefully qualify for future VS models. That’s a personal decision and I fault no one for doing so (I’ve done it), but buying and losing money on cars you didn’t really want should be factored into the total cost. Based on what I’m reading, fewer people are willing to buy their way into a VS slot which is partly a reflection of the overall economic environment, but perhaps it’s also because collectors are less excited about future models. In other words, they believe ‘peak Ferrari’ has already past.
As far as I know you do not get a material improvement to your client status by buying cars and flipping them after 6 months. This sort of activity places lots of nearly new cars in the used car market and makes it harder for dealers to attract new car orders unless they discount them. The benefit for Ferrari is questionable. I understand plenty of people do this, but I don’t know anyone who got a TDF or a LaF because of it. People might have gotten a Pista or a 812GTS but those are not limited number series If the 812 VS is a limited number series (which I believe it will be), Ferrari will prioritise real owners of multiple Ferraris, who have been allocated -and still own- limited number cars before and also own at least one of the GT cars. If they cannot find enough people -and this was the case with the 599GTO- then the bar will be lower and more people will get access to the car I do agree with you that it is hard to get excited about future models, given the trend towards more weight, GPF, batteries, FUV and this may weigh on the desire of Ferraristi to buy future models. It appears to me that Ferrari are “bifurcating” their strategy towards a “normal production” stream which will be hit by the modernisation trend and will attempt to bring new buyers to the marque and a “special series” stream (Icona, hypercar) which will make more old school, visceral Ferraris, but at a price that is beyond the reach of mere mortals and delivers much higher profit margins.
Totally share your view. I would add one comment which is those who bought to flip in recent years... what did they really achieve or gain therefore if flipping isn’t improving your rating with the factory. All it did was damage residuals on cars bought by people who bought them to enjoy with no speculative view + destroyed confidence in the worthiness of new cars hence diminishing future demand. Your reference to the icona/ hypercar to deliver visceral experience seems very right and F have seen that that’s where premiums ar and what the market/collectors demand so they will no doubt make that at an unaffordable price going forward. That might make the 599gto/ tdf / speciale look like bargains sooner than we think
There is zero reason for the 812VS to be limited/numbered edition, Ferrari is running out of time for N.A. V12 big block engines, Lamborghini confirms this as well, given that Ferrari wants to sell as many cars as it can and the fact that the early reveal of the SF90 (about 1 year early!) removed much of the demand for the 812SF, (and SF90 spider will do the same to the 812GTS which apparently is already suffering from lack of demand due to anyone being able to order from any (USA) dealer with available allocations) it makes no sense to limit 812VS (other than time, like the Pista); Remember there is a hard wall coming in 2022 (per EU, pushed back some, but remains) that will require chassis modifications and there really is no reason to limit production since the current 812 body/chassis design will be discontinued (yes, end-of-series allowances possible but with the lack of 812 orders now will it really matter?) And, will Ferrari be able to overcome new obstacles to make the 812VS sufficiently distinct to be worth putting into production? If it is just a body kit and 220 pounds lighter (100kg) and a 9250 rev limit will it find success, regardless of what you believe, the SF90 did substantially reduce 812SF demand and unless the 812 VS is really over the top it will not find a large audience as it should...
My personal view as I said before was that it would not be numbered F will be incentivised to make money as you said and they also need to reward those who bought several cars and flipped them which as George said wouldn’t happen if the car was numbered. My personal view it will be limited by time only like the pista and will push as many as they can. The criteria will initially appear very tight to create demand and will loosen gradually as we’ve seen with the GTS. They might make an aperta for collectors which will be the numbered one
I agree with most of that thinking. But then I realize there was no tdF aperta (even though the F60 America was available as a base), the 812GTS design suggests it was rushed. I doubt there will be an 812VSA (did the Monza actually sell out?), especially given the 812GTS is not selling as initially thought (as apparent due to no prequalifications to order, at least in USA). With the "new order" Ferrari has created (with the SF90 as top model, 1000PS even though "who needs 1000PS", it still remains relevant Ferrari has placed it as its top model) That means, if the 812VS is announced, it will likely find very limited success if priced higher than the SF90, even if a numbered edition and what if it was numbered and did not sell out, unless they set its number really low like 399. But, from Ferrari's standpoint of being a publicly traded company, they are not going to cap production at a low number, they must sell as many as they can. Thinking about that, if 812VS is numbered and is capped low (such as 399) then there could be pricing higher than the SF90, but, only if the 812VS is an amazing upgrade to the 812SF which seems doubtful, but remains possible, remember the LaF had a 9250 rev limit, how much higher can they go in a streetable production car? And, remember, the model to follow could very well use a new block that is no longer 65degree and smaller displacement, so, I think the need to sell as many of this engine before it ends production, it will be most important deciding factor. So many possibilities, the result will probably be something we are not even thinking about ...yet And, because the 812SF order book has been greatly reduced, a "mid-cycle" engine refresh may be what we are looking at and not an 812VS at all...something to get the order pipeline re-filled... Curious times
I guess the rarer the car, the less likely you ever see one in person. The 812 is that rare. I never see them. I have seen exactly one other on the road in the last two years, excluding Ferrari club events. So yesterday I was going to play tennis with a friend and a guy turned around to follow me. When I stopped he started gushing over the car and asked me what model it was. He had never seen one so he took a few pictures. Then when I got to the courts and parked, another guy watched me park and then came over and asked me what it was except he at first said it looks like a Corvette, ugh. Most people that see my car have no idea what model it is so I think it's a pretty rare car. These VS cars will all be hidden from the public view I suppose in someone's garage. Strange that Ferrari would want to make cars for people that hide them. Then when I look at the 812 for sale on auto trader or car gurus and I see there are about 70 of them for sale and the most miles on any of them is about 4,000 on a two year old model. That is a car that has actually been driven some by it's owner. I already have 1000 miles on mine in two month's ownership and plenty of people are getting to see it. I get a lot of people commenting on the car and how great it looks. I would think Ferrari would rather have people that advertise it's cars as customers instead of those that hide them but again, I guess the hiding type have the deeper pockets and no one else wants to pay the kind of money it costs to drive these cars because so far, the 1000 miles I have on the car is likely to cost me about $100/mile.
Almost 50 for sale in the UK and more 812 registered than F12. So not that rare. That said do you see one in the street every day? Probably not but what rarity means is a function of definition. There is no scarcity for sure
Difference is USA was vastly undersupplied (812SF dealer allocations 50% of expected), there simply are very few 812s in the USA (likely about 1000). The UK, difference is Ferrari intentionally oversupplied for 2 reasons, Brexit (unknown impact of import duties) and GPF, the EU and China were both over supplied as well, GPF/emissions targets changes that Ferrari wanted to "get ahead of" (as well as "noise regulations" coming now/very soon in EU). For the USA Ferrari "figured" they had time to "catch up" production, but, then Ferrari did a very early reveal of the SF90 (who reveals a new model 18+months before production?) and destroyed demand for the 812, worldwide. This is all weighing down on the 812VS, if it is only a moderate improvement (engine) and updated body design (that's going to be tough to please everyone) then its reception will be lukewarm, as it will have GPF and (EU) noise regulations impacting it. Fingers crossed the unexpected happens
Thanks for the comments there. I think this is also why some of us over here in the states may feel the relative lack of vehicles vs say what some of you in the UK have mentioned of oversupply. As I mentioned in another post, I have never seen an 812 EVER on the road or anywhere. But it sounds like they are just sitting around everywhere so to speak in the UK piling up in dealer lots.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say they are everywhere but yes almost 50 for sale which is a lot for the UK, about 400 cars registered so far and I suspect more might come for sale as a resulting of swapping for GTS. To me its clear that Ferrari did a poor job in allocation management to preserve exclusivity. They supplied the market after 2 years with more 812 that they did supply with F12 in 5 years... in a context where supply for other “burner” car has increased and competition from other brands is more fierce. Lots of those 812 are cars being flipped by people who were tempted to the game. What really shocks me is that lots of orders were cancelled in the UK as well so had those buyers not cancelled their orders how many cars would have been supplied in the UK market?? This shows that exclusivity is not part of the equation anymore and when revenue is the main topic it’s no surprise lots of investors/collectors/even normal buyers are losing interest
